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Accident scene

ultracyclist

New member
I came upon an accident today between 2 cages about 5 seconds after it happened. Essentially a big sport ute cut off an Asian sub compact coming out of Home Depot. The ute won the argument. In the Asian car, the airbags deployed and the front -the former front end-was crunched to windshield with radiator fluid and other fluids all over the road. There was an electrical burning smell.

I took the Accident Scene management class at the West bend Rally, and about two years ago I completed a land rescue course via the Red Cross. The driver of the Asian car, a nursing student, was complaining of knee and neck paid. Two other people were there, both RN's, and they assessed her quickly. She managed to stand up, point at the other driver, and yell "You b***H! You cut me off. You didn't even see me. You didn't even look". She was really p****d. At that point Milwaukee Fire and Rescue arrived, and I think she will do OK.

I left. But it left me thinking," had she been riding a motorcycle..."

So what is the takeaway? Ride so they see you.
 
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No, you're going to have to see them.

The lady made an incorrect assumption.

Don't pull out in front of anybody who's close enough to hit you--right of way is meaningless ... especially if the other driver isn't intimidated by something smaller. Yes, they'll give you the right of way if you're bigger, otherwise maybe, maybe not. And, obviously you can't tell if they're distracted in any event.

"Ride so they see you" is pretty much 100% wrong. What's 100% is that you're in charge of your destiny and in charge of your safety and you implement this not with bright clothing, headlight on, etc., etc., but rather with your own actions.
 
Yes, I agree.
You must always assume they don't see you if you're on a bike.

You're always riding in their blind spot.
 
Defensive "riding"(also handy when driving) rules the day. I'd much rather take out my anger from a distance, as the other car steals the right of way than up close & personal. I was once "torpedoed by a car" that was driven into the side of my PU on a 4 lane unrestricted hwy(24west N. of Topeka,KS) and as the guy was being tended by the ambulance people he was lamenting his next missed sales call while groaning in pain-NOT! did he kill the other guy-ME! Moral of my story: just hope you have a choice to be defensive, not if, you should have been.
 
No, you're going to have to see them.

The lady made an incorrect assumption.

Don't pull out in front of anybody who's close enough to hit you--right of way is meaningless ... especially if the other driver isn't intimidated by something smaller. Yes, they'll give you the right of way if you're bigger, otherwise maybe, maybe not. And, obviously you can't tell if they're distracted in any event.

"Ride so they see you" is pretty much 100% wrong. What's 100% is that you're in charge of your destiny and in charge of your safety and you implement this not with bright clothing, headlight on, etc., etc., but rather with your own actions.

Kent is spot-on with his advice, as ultimate responsibility for crash avoidance rests with you, the more vulnerable motorcyclist.

I would add though not to ignore dressing to be as visible as possible - "part of being safe is being seen."

But yield to anything that could hurt you - better to whine about an idiot driver over a steak supper that night than have hospital jello being spoon-fed to you by some nurse's aid named Bruno!
 
This reminds of my own experience this past Tuesday at 6:00 a.m. I was waiting at a red light, waiting to cross a four lane street. As the light changed, I was well into the first lane of the four, when I had to hit the brakes, as the opposing car made a left turn against me. What if I was on a bike? You have to always ride, anticipating and protecting yourself. Heck, in a parking lot, I've even had a car pull out in front of me, even though I was driving my van! :banghead
 
Until we stop issuing licenses like the prize in a cracker jack box, and start pulling them for poor, distracted and dangerous driving it will only get worse. We have people who don't have a clue, passing their bad habits on to the next generation, in a reverse Darwinism.

Maybe if we took away the guardrails, airbags, seat belts etc, drivers would get better or die, just like us riders.
 
All good comments! I believe in High Vis gear...I use high a vis yellow jacket w/ reflective stripes, and I just switched from a black to a white helmet. Head light always on. However, that is only the first part of self defense. I make the assumption that the other guy always has the right away! At an intersection, I can almost always tell when the other driver, on the side street or in the oncoming lane that wants to turn left, sees me. However, that driver can visually see, however does not mentally see me! That very important difference I am totally unable to discern. So, I make sure that I can either stop or avoid in these situations. As one who hates pain (both physical and financial) I'll give the other guy the right of way. I'd like to ride as long as possible, rather than trying to prove the point that I'm in the right.
 
The nannycrats insist that we must cater to the lowest common denominator; Darwin is thereby overruled.

It's not their "seeing" - it's perceiving. Tough to do when they're phoning + texting + applying makeup + spilling coffee + yelling at the screaming kids + listening to the "Recalculating..." And besides, my SUV is bigger than yours, so get the [heck] out of my way, I'm late.

Priorities, ya know.
 
My riding habits definitely transfer to my driving habits. I assume nothing about other vehicles on the road. This includes who has the right of way, use of blinkers, visibility, etc. Nothing.

It's about avoiding the accident.

Sure, good visibility should be practiced, but there are no guarantees. I think of visibility in almost the same terms as I do locks on your doors; they keep honest people honest. Crooks are going to break in anyway. Same with riding and visibility. The people that are actually looking are going to see you anyway, but for drivers who aren't paying attention for whatever reason, it's not going matter.
 
I ride paranoid. I assume they are all out to get me and I assume they don't see me.
 
very interesting

All very good comments.
I have changed my riding style over the years by trying to keep more open space in front of me. That is a full time job.
Yes, I wear hi-viz gear.
And yes, Ken, I am riding more the way you are.
 
I am always amazed at all the opportunities cagers have to take me out and they don't :eek Now deer are a different story. Those things are animals!
 
I ride paranoid. I assume they are all out to get me and I assume they don't see me.

This seems to be the only way to survive these days. It is amazing to me the number of people that run red lights & fail to yield right of way these days! It's sadly becoming the "new normal" to expect the unexpected from other drivers. Not so many years ago it was rare to see someone run a red light but now fairly commonplace! It appears to be the "hurry up life style" practiced by many? What is the mentality of those that take these risks?
A good question would be: why do you get to keep your driving privilege when you truly threaten the lives of others by these actions with a vehicle yet if it were done with "some other" lethal device(I'm trying to stay legal & not be too provocative here!) it would get you some jail time? Our society tolerates far to much, expects far too little from drivers.
 
This seems to be the only way to survive these days. It is amazing to me the number of people that run red lights & fail to yield right of way these days! It's sadly becoming the "new normal" to expect the unexpected from other drivers. Not so many years ago it was rare to see someone run a red light but now fairly commonplace! It appears to be the "hurry up life style" practiced by many? What is the mentality of those that take these risks?
A good question would be: why do you get to keep your driving privilege when you truly threaten the lives of others by these actions with a vehicle yet if it were done with "some other" lethal device(I'm trying to stay legal & not be too provocative here!) it would get you some jail time? Our society tolerates far to much, expects far too little from drivers.

You echo valid concerns on the minds of many a motorcyclist. Yet, we Americans are a pathetic bunch when it comes to personal responsibility.

We resist intersection cameras and vote out of office any politician who would dare raise taxes to fund more squad cars on patrol to catch these idiots - yet grumble endlessly about how out of control the driving public has gotten.

Don't see this getting any better any time soon.

Be careful out there.
 
You echo valid concerns on the minds of many a motorcyclist. Yet, we Americans are a pathetic bunch when it comes to personal responsibility.

We resist intersection cameras and vote out of office any politician who would dare raise taxes to fund more squad cars on patrol to catch these idiots - yet grumble endlessly about how out of control the driving public has gotten.

Don't see this getting any better any time soon.

Be careful out there.

I would rather mandate driver training as a prerequisite to getting a license, and I am not talking sitting in a class room and watching a movie, but REAL WORLD training behind a wheel, or better yet a simulator, where real hazards can be simulated and actual driving skill has to be demonstrated.

Then, like Europe, severe penalties for putting others at risk.

More LEO is not the answer, but effective enforcement is, NYS bans cell phone use and now texting too, but I can drive down main st of our little city, behind a police car, and in 3 miles, see at least 3-6 drivers chatting away, while the cop drives merrily along. Many swerving, sitting at green lights until someone honks, blowing through intersections etc. Two more cop cars cruising up and down main st will do nothing, unless they start enforcing and reinforcing the laws and dangers.

Anyone who gets caught texting need to go to a simulator, and have them simulate a 5 year old chasing a ball in the road as they run over them, while they were texting LOL to their BFF's, screaming parents and all! A reality smack up side of the head, is better than a slap on the wrists, or trip to jail AFTER they injure someone.
 
I would rather mandate driver training as a prerequisite to getting a license, and I am not talking sitting in a class room and watching a movie, but REAL WORLD training behind a wheel, or better yet a simulator, where real hazards can be simulated and actual driving skill has to be demonstrated.

Then, like Europe, severe penalties for putting others at risk.

More LEO is not the answer, but effective enforcement is, NYS bans cell phone use and now texting too, but I can drive down main st of our little city, behind a police car, and in 3 miles, see at least 3-6 drivers chatting away, while the cop drives merrily along. Many swerving, sitting at green lights until someone honks, blowing through intersections etc. Two more cop cars cruising up and down main st will do nothing, unless they start enforcing and reinforcing the laws and dangers.

Anyone who gets caught texting need to go to a simulator, and have them simulate a 5 year old chasing a ball in the road as they run over them, while they were texting LOL to their BFF's, screaming parents and all! A reality smack up side of the head, is better than a slap on the wrists, or trip to jail AFTER they injure someone.


Like any good discussion, I agree with some of your points; object to others.

Consider this from my (former LEO) perspective: I used to aggressively enforce common traffic violations such as improper right turns and running red lights..............until my supervisors chewed my butt for not being "available" for more important calls (ones that never seemed to materialize, for the most part?!). Not saying that's what's going on with the cops in your neck of the woods (I'll be the first to admit that lazy cops do exist, but don't paint with too broad a brush - most trying to do their best - really), but consider this:

Back in the late '70's and early '80's, when personnel in law enforcement was plentiful (including my department), all kinds of creative enforcement occurred and we had the traffic statistics to prove that numbers mattered. Now, with dwindling resources for traffic patrol, drivers have lost their fear of getting cited, and drive however they please.

More cops may sound like too simple a solution, but often simple is what gets the job done. :deal
 
I would rather mandate driver training as a prerequisite to getting a license, and I am not talking sitting in a class room and watching a movie, but REAL WORLD training behind a wheel, or better yet a simulator, where real hazards can be simulated and actual driving skill has to be demonstrated.

Then, like Europe, severe penalties for putting others at risk.

More LEO is not the answer, but effective enforcement is, NYS bans cell phone use and now texting too, but I can drive down main st of our little city, behind a police car, and in 3 miles, see at least 3-6 drivers chatting away, while the cop drives merrily along. Many swerving, sitting at green lights until someone honks, blowing through intersections etc. Two more cop cars cruising up and down main st will do nothing, unless they start enforcing and reinforcing the laws and dangers.

Anyone who gets caught texting need to go to a simulator, and have them simulate a 5 year old chasing a ball in the road as they run over them, while they were texting LOL to their BFF's, screaming parents and all! A reality smack up side of the head, is better than a slap on the wrists, or trip to jail AFTER they injure someone.

pffog, I believe I am total agreement with you. Mandatory training with a licensed instructor SHOULD be a prerequisite to getting a drivers license. I think training before getting a license, or re-training on a simulator following an "at fault" accident or ticket for any form of "distracted driving" should also be mandatory. The BIG QUESTION is the availability and cost of good driving simulators. It would certainly be safer for the students (and driving instructors) to have students making mistakes on a simulator than learning the same hard lessons in the "real world." Anybody able to answer the questions about availability and cost of driving simulators?

Just as with speed enforcement or drinking and driving, you only have to nail a small percentage of the culprits - and have it well publicized - to alter the behavior of most motorists. I think education (texting while driving a simulator) would bring the message home far more than just a big fine. My guess is that most of the "texters" are in the under 30 crowd and most likely to use the social media. A few hundred of their stories might dramatically change the ideas of a large demographic.

LEO's simply ignoring cell phone use and texting while driving sends exactly the WRONG message; and I agree, that seems to be the norm.
 
My standard last advise to newbies in my classes:

You are riding in a combat zone. You're are invisible and everyone is trying to kill you. Ride and act accordingly and you will have a good chance of surviving on the street.
 
Like any good discussion, I agree with some of your points; object to others.

Consider this from my (former LEO) perspective: I used to aggressively enforce common traffic violations such as improper right turns and running red lights..............until my supervisors chewed my butt for not being "available" for more important calls (ones that never seemed to materialize, for the most part?!). Not saying that's what's going on with the cops in your neck of the woods (I'll be the first to admit that lazy cops do exist, but don't paint with too broad a brush - most trying to do their best - really), but consider this:

Back in the late '70's and early '80's, when personnel in law enforcement was plentiful (including my department), all kinds of creative enforcement occurred and we had the traffic statistics to prove that numbers mattered. Now, with dwindling resources for traffic patrol, drivers have lost their fear of getting cited, and drive however they please.

More cops may sound like too simple a solution, but often simple is what gets the job done. :deal

Greenwald, I'm sure you are correct that LEO's on the street enforce the laws their superiors TELL them to enforce and mostly ignore other infractions. My question is how the superior officers decide which traffic laws should be occasionally enforced (given reduced personnel) and which should be totally ignored.

Here in BC we have three "nanny laws," - my shorthand for laws that protect us from ourselves, not others from ourselves: seatbelts, MC helmets, and bicycle helmets. You WILL receive a ticket and fine if you are not wearing your seatbelt if stopped for any reason. EVERYBODY wears a MC helmet in BC - though often a junk one, now illegal - because again you WILL be fined for not wearing a MC helmet. Over 50% of all bicycle riders I see, both juvenile and adult, do not wear a helmet. I have yet to hear or read about anyone cited for violating this law which has been in place for several years. This despite a few deaths on bicycles which might have been avoided by helmet usage. Not to raise the question of helmet laws yet again: I'd use all three of the above if they were not required. I DO raise the question of very different enforcement of three similar laws.

In BC, drunk driving laws have become much tougher in the last couple years: blow .05 BAC (0.08 is the norm) and you lose your license for three days, your car is impounded, etc. BIG expense and hassle. Blow 0.08, much bigger expense and I believe 90 days you can not drive. I believe it is pretty much accepted that using a hand-held cellphone while driving is as predictive of an accident as driving with a .08 BAC. Driving while texting is equivalent to driving dead drunk. So, why not some few days where THESE laws become the priority for LEO's? (I expect the penalties are not even close to the DUI penalties in any jurisdiction, but SOME enforcement would be a good start.)
 
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