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AAA Warning on Ethanol

I had a Ducati Sport Classic. 10% Ethanol ruined three fuel tanks. :banghead I got rid of the bike. 15% is going to be a whole lot worse.
 

This can be somewhat confusing. Ethanol doesn't actually burn hotter, but it can cause an engine to run hot. If you don't have a closed loop fuel metering system (like EFI with an O2 sensor) The engine will run leaner than intended with an Ethanol blend fuel. The higher the ethanol percentage, the leaner it runs and the leaner it runs, the hotter it runs.
 
This can be somewhat confusing. Ethanol doesn't actually burn hotter, but it can cause an engine to run hot. If you don't have a closed loop fuel metering system (like EFI with an O2 sensor) The engine will run leaner than intended with an Ethanol blend fuel. The higher the ethanol percentage, the leaner it runs and the leaner it runs, the hotter it runs.

You, sir, are absolutely correct.
 
www.pure-gas.org

my bikes run so much better with no ethanol.

*love* their mobile app... :clap :burnout

I finally clicked on the link for "pure-gas" then BC, the province I live in. I guess I can believe that ALL Shell 91 octane contains no ethanol in my home province. If true, that is good to know as my bike supposedly prefers "premium."

I guess I can also believe that ALL Chevron 94 octane contains no ethanol in BC. (NO other stations offer 94 octane in BC.)

What I found unbelieveable was that the 100 Mile House Chevron (this is a very small town well away from population centers) ALONE offers ethanol-free gas in 87, 89, and 92 octane! They send a truck (or is that FOUR trucks, one for each octane?) to service the discerning folk in this small town?

Somebody help me out here.
 
This can be somewhat confusing. Ethanol doesn't actually burn hotter, but it can cause an engine to run hot. If you don't have a closed loop fuel metering system (like EFI with an O2 sensor) The engine will run leaner than intended with an Ethanol blend fuel. The higher the ethanol percentage, the leaner it runs and the leaner it runs, the hotter it runs.

My bike runs lean. I wonder if the fuel I am burning is a large percentage of the cause.
 
Are you talking about the 1995 K75 you have listed? If so, does the L-Jetronic run closed loop with an O2 sensor or is it open loop, running a pre-programmed map and supplying fuel based on the air volume and proably some other sensors? If it running open loop, it is possible, but it should only have a small impact between gasoline and E10 so it is questionable as to whether or not you would notice it. It depends on how lean BMW designed it to run in the first place. If you are running a higher percentage of alcohol, all bets are off. Other factors such as ignition timing and fuel pressure can play a significant role as well. If the K75 is tempermental on E10, it should be heavily discussed in the K forum.
 
Even gaskets designed to "tolerate" ethanol may survive much longer with e10 than e?? though any gasket chemically formulated to be doused in the cocktail of petrol (aromatics and aliphatics) might not behave well if put into alcohol
.

That's exactly one of my points. The fuel systems are already designed to tolerate alcohol in the mix. How likely is it the designers of those systems specified for an absolute max at 10%. O rings, gaskets, seals, plastic parts, etc. that will survive 10% will fail at 15%? Not likely IMO.

water will naturally adhere to ethanol from the atmosphere. More ethanol --> more water, less combustion, yadda yadda yadda.

too many variables, especially since e10 is rarely 10% ethanol as it is. If the fudge factor for e10 is +5% /- 1%, imagine how much it gets to be with e15. They aren't allowed to go below the ethanol content, but they can go above.

Here you're talking about variables and contaminants and they can never be accounted for. Modern fuel systems are isolated from the atmosphere so water take up by the ethanol should not be significant.
 
I'm no chemical or elastomer expert, but the higher concentration of ethanol starts to degrade certain synthetic rubber materials, harden certain plastics, create nasty acids in the fuel systems. All around a loosing proposition forced on us by the government and lobbyists. E10 and E15 wouldn't be viable on the market if it weren't for the subsidies that offset the higher cost of the product. Subsidies by the way, funded by the taxes we pay.
 
An e.g. of a recent repair for me(not on a bike but still were are talking ethanol fuel) is my Kohler sawmill engine. I started it up & have a new fuel leak behind the plastic fuel tank. The engine was built some where around 1998-9. Upon removal the leak is at the output end adjacent to the fuel line nipple exit of the plastic fuel pump. I remove the top of the mechanical pump & glue the crack there after a thorough cleaning & using a product called "Seal All"(yellow tube & smells & looks like thick version of model airplane glue) which is said to be "gasoline" proof I let it cure for 2 days & it has gone through several gallons of fuel OK.
The question for me (as relates to this thread & in talking various components contact with 10% or 15% fuels) becomes , are the terms gasoline dated when we read the label on Seal All type products or in making the decision to buy a plastic replacement part such as the fuel pump? FWIW, some of those engines have plastic or metal mechanical pumps, some have metal electric & some have pulse operated plastic,etc.. I.e., plastic fuel connectors on BMW bikes,etc..?:dunno
 
That's exactly one of my points. The fuel systems are already designed to tolerate alcohol in the mix. How likely is it the designers of those systems specified for an absolute max at 10%. O rings, gaskets, seals, plastic parts, etc. that will survive 10% will fail at 15%? Not likely IMO.



Here you're talking about variables and contaminants and they can never be accounted for. Modern fuel systems are isolated from the atmosphere so water take up by the ethanol should not be significant.

Components which were designed to survive for a reasonable period of time in E10 may fail sooner in E15.

Water absorption can occur before you pump a drop into your tank and no fuel system is isolated from the atmosphere. If it was, you'd have a vaccuum in your tank as soon as you started riding. Outside air filling the void in the tank as fuel is consumed may be filtered through a carbon canister, but that doesn't remove humidity.

If you have a fuel injected engine with a closed loop system that was designed to run on E10, it can probably accomodate E15 without too much trouble. If the design was marginal and you were maxing out the trim, fuel injector flow or pump capacity with E10, E15 may push you over the edge. Open loop and carbureted engines may require modification to run properly on E15. Unfortunately, those modifications may be illegal.

Fuel pumps, injectors and intake valves are lubricated by fuel. Ethanol provides less lubrication than other gasoline components and may reduce component life as the percentage is increased.

E15 isn't an absolute evil, but it will cause issues for some engines. Don't assume that if an engine was certified to run on E10 that it was optimized for it. It may have already been on the edge at 10% and 15% ethanol may push it over.
 
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I finally clicked on the link for "pure-gas" then BC, the province I live in. I guess I can believe that ALL Shell 91 octane contains no ethanol in my home province. If true, that is good to know as my bike supposedly prefers "premium."

I guess I can also believe that ALL Chevron 94 octane contains no ethanol in BC. (NO other stations offer 94 octane in BC.)

What I found unbelieveable was that the 100 Mile House Chevron (this is a very small town well away from population centers) ALONE offers ethanol-free gas in 87, 89, and 92 octane! They send a truck (or is that FOUR trucks, one for each octane?) to service the discerning folk in this small town?

Somebody help me out here.

What I have been told is that the driver mixes the ethanol in at time of delivery. The tanker truck has multiple compartments with different octanes and 100 % ethanol.
Remember to thank the owner of the station from which you purchase pure gas.
Steve
 
It take more energy to produce ethanol than the energy you get from it.

It takes energy to produce the fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, corn seed and transport it. It takes energy to plant, harvest and transport the corn. Then it takes a lot of energy to transform the corn into ethanol and then transport it.

It has made land owners rich. Land in our area that was selling for $3,000 an acre before ethanol is now worth $14,000.

If you took the government ethanol subsides away that big companies and farm organizations lobbied for, it would not be profitable and would go away.

Let's hope.
 
What I have been told is that the driver mixes the ethanol in at time of delivery. The tanker truck has multiple compartments with different octanes and 100 % ethanol.
Remember to thank the owner of the station from which you purchase pure gas.
Steve

Thank you, Steve. You also raise a huge question: can a single gas station simply say "no ethanol in any of our tanks?" Even if they had to pay a slightly higher price for "pure gas" which would certainly be passed on to us consumers, if they advertised it as getting better mileage and fewer other problems for both car and bike drivers, I think in a few years ethanol would be a thing of the past.

But I thought this was a federally mandated thing.

Clearly I'm confused. Again, if you can, help me out.
 
go to www.pure-gas.org & click on about this site for your answers. A bunch around me are too busy gouging at anywhere from 10-30+ cents per gallon right now too want to tie up a tank in the interest of the small bike/boat crowd.
As of 12/26/12 the gouge is still on with a 35 cent spread in price in my area.
 
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It has made land owners rich. Land in our area that was selling for $3,000 an acre before ethanol is now worth $14,000.

The land's value hasn't increased - the cost has. It hasn't made the landowners as wealthy as might seem because they're paying a lot more in taxes and have to borrow more to pay for everything involved due to the inflationary aspects of the "energy boom".

If you took the government ethanol subsides away that big companies and farm organizations lobbied for, it would not be profitable and would go away.

Let's hope.
:clap

Just like the housing "boom" of the 90s and early 2Ks - price inflation makes any "real" increase meaningless because it's all on paper and when the bottom drops...duck.
 
What I have been told is that the driver mixes the ethanol in at time of delivery. The tanker truck has multiple compartments with different octanes and 100 % ethanol.
Remember to thank the owner of the station from which you purchase pure gas.
Steve

We have a member who works/worked at a distribution terminal who has responded a few times on this subject...hopefully he will add some insight.

I have been within rock throwing distance of the facilitiy while working with the power company in Austin and watched different companies tankers pulling up to the same bays to load up.
The base fuel is blended AT the terminal...with ethanol and whatever "additive" each big boy markets, think Techron being one. The tankers do not carry it seperately. Marathon Refinery ( one I know of near Galveston) makes a generic gasoline and most use it as a base.
My dad was in the petrochemical business most of his adult life, so we got to hear about it...a lot:doh Also growing up and working along the gulf coast among all the refineries made one ask a lot of questions of who makes what?


this is from a report by these folks:

http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/transportation/afvs/ethanol.html



How is ethanol fuel transported, stored and distributed?

Most of California's current ethanol fuel supply is delivered from the producing states via standard rail tank cars, with some import shipments via marine vessels. It is then stored at fuel terminals and added to gasoline when tank trucks are filled for delivery to fueling stations, where it is stored and dispensed the same as non-ethanol gasoline.

E85 dispensers require use of upgraded materials compatible with ethanol's chemical properties. Also, due to certain ethanol properties, fuel transport pipelines in the United States do not currently ship ethanol or gasoline containing ethanol, although experience in Brazil and elsewhere indicates that pipeline shipment can be feasible. To prevent diversion for human consumption, federal regulations require ethanol produced for fuel use to have a denaturant (usually gasoline) added before shipping.
 
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