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The merits of traction control...

samuelh

New member
I've been posting a lot lately, here's something else that I've been thinking about:

I bought my most recent ride in large part because of the availability of traction control. I bought it about a month after a friend of mine crashed when she had to swerve onto some wet railroad tracks to avoid a car. As she described it the engine revved, the rear wheel spun, and she went sideways and high sided.

I know that TC is typically used on motoGP bikes as a sort of artificial intelligence, allowing riders to pin the throttle on corner exits and accelerate at the most optimum pace.

I have also read a little about how TC works, by retarding the ignition timing (which is a little opaque to me) and by shutting down fuel flow to cylinders (which is a little more obvious.)

BMW offers ASC on the 1200's, and on the RR, but they don't offer it on the 800's or on the new scooters. My friends bike was a 250 incidentally.

Wondering what people think of this issue. I'm sure there will be a lot of "I've gone 30 years without it" posts. My first real bike had ABS, and that probably effects the way I brake in many situations. I grew up driving Subaru's, and am pretty used to cars that automagically don't fish tail.

Thoughts?
 
I bought it about a month after a friend of mine crashed when she had to swerve onto some wet railroad tracks to avoid a car. As she described it the engine revved, the rear wheel spun, and she went sideways and high sided.

I'm VERY SORRY your friend crashed. Her experience is why I advocate pulling in the clutch during a swerve.

I bought my Adventure used. It has ASC. Personally (and this is a personal preference), I don't like it. If I wanna let the rear spin or loft the front, I don't want the bike telling me I can't.

I guess I'm old school but to me, traction control is throttle control.

Should it still be produced so that each owner can make the choice that's right for them? Absolutely.
 
I am on the other end of that spectrum. I agree that when I 'want' to do those things, I want to be able to....but, when I don't want those things happening in suddenly changing situations that either I mis-diagnose or miss altogether, I really like the idea of ASC, especially for the less than pro rider. Just like the first ABS I ever had on a bike saved my bacon, the ASC has saved me at least once I know of. I don't know that it would have helped your friend, but it might have. I do agree that one should have the option, though, and for me it is the switch to turn it off when I want.
 
I had it on an 07 GSA...never liked it. When you need to whack the throttle open, you can't. Had a car come over a rise in hilly Branson a few years back doing twice the limit behind us in our lane.

I tried to accelerate to get out of his way while in 2nd gear...it just stalled enough to make me turn it off as a feature.

Now,a rain mode on a sportbike might make sense...but it's not something I'll order anytime soon.
 
It's standard now on most high end cars and there's talk DOT will make in mandatory. I've experienced it in action in a car and it's really cool. I had it retrofitted to my R1200RT. I went many years without the Internet and without an iPhone but think I also need them these days.
 
I think most MOA members would be indifferent to the merits of traction control.

But don't get them going on ABS and/or linked braking. :ha
 
+1
Since learning to ride in the 1960s I've only had one episode where tc might have been useful- the first time I spun a tire on a wet manhole cover as a newb. BUT learning occured and I've never done it since. Situational awareness is what keeps one alive on a bike- no amount of gimmicks is a full substitute for engaged brains plus experience. OTOH, as part of a launch control system for the latest high hp devices it makes possible stuff that most riders couldn't do otherwise.

On cars with tc plus asc, I've got mixed feelings. The cream of the crop from a performance viewpoint is the Nissan GTR- its very well developed system allows idiots to go very quickly by contantly protecting them from their own lack of skill- had enough track students with them to be all to familiar with its capabilities. These same folks will wreck easily in anything else because they push way beyond their own skill and expect the machine to bail them out without recognizing even a little bit that it is the computers saving their butt, not their own "talent". OTOH, if it keeps some soccer mom with her minivan alive to have to take care of her kids ...For myself, on a street car I don't care one way or another as long as its not intrusive on a peformance vehicle- regrettably ALL of the German ones are nannie nuisances and the passable ones are American or Japanese on select models only.
 
ASC should never activate unless your rear wheel is spinning or your front wheel is off the ground. Riding double up on my 2005 GS (without ASC) I had a couple of instances where steep roads at intersections had my front wheel off the ground when I really had plans for it steering the bike. It was quite easy to provoke the GS into first or second gear even riding solo.

On my 2011 R1200R, the ASC seems to hold the bike in a nice shallow wheelie on heavy acceleration. Without ASC I doubt it would accelerate much faster since it would probably run the risk of a ground loop.

In NH, the DOT has a quaint habit of painting reflective markings at intersections with a very slippery paint. Even my car spins its tires on these markings (OK, its a fairly fast car, and I might not hang around intersections very long but it does have very sticky tires and ASC) so I suspect that ASC might save a few motorcyclists from paint relatd crashes.
 
I'm a 100% street rider, and daily 2-wheel commuter. There are enough road hazards (metal plates, painted lines, oil drippings in the rain) that I'm happy to have ASC on board -- anything that might help keep me rubber side down when my reflexes aren't quick enough is very welcome, even with 35+ years of riding under my belt.

As for the dirt side of the equation, I do not begin to have enough experience to know whether ASC is a good or bad thing in the dirt -- I would think not, as I would think you would want the ability to spin the rear wheel when desired. That said, if I had an R12GS I'd still want ASC -- you can always deliberately switch it off when you're ready to run off the asphault, but it's there for the 95+% of the miles most GS riders ride on pavement.

As for wheelie control, same thing -- most of the time I want to be able to accelerate as hard as I want without worrying about whether the front wheel is going to start coming up and gather LEO attention -- I can always turn if off when I want to have some, um, "track only" fun. I will admit, however, that my view on the subject of wheelies may be a bit colored by the "discussion" I had one nice summer day in 1979 about my RD350's carrying the front wheel across an intersection ... totally by accident, of course ;) ).
 
Today's luxuries become tomorrows necessities, I think this started with indoor plumbing.
I'm sure some hardcores made a good argument against that, too.
 
I'm sure some hardcores made a good argument against that, too.

"You do what in your house? God, only animals crap where they live......."

The sentiments of my uncle when my father installed indoor plumbing in their mother's house.
 
Sure, there are benefits to TC. There are also benefits to training wheels, automatic transmission, ABS, airbags, a weather tight enclosure, GPS, etc, etc, but they all change what a "motorcycle" is all about. I don't think such changes are for the better.
 
My grandfather

"You do what in your house? God, only animals crap where they live......."

The sentiments of my uncle when my father installed indoor plumbing in their mother's house.

My grandfather was the same way. When my uncle came home from the Korean War, he decided to have a pump installed in the well. He also upgraded the wiring in the house. But his plan to install a bathroom in the house was vetoed by my grandfather. Uncle Jack ended up building a 12 x 24 brick bath house with a sheltered walkway to the house.
 
TC on my Sequoia

I must be old school or just old. I thought my throttle was TC.:scratch

It might be because it is first generation; but the traction control on my Sequoia is dangerous.

Pull out from a side road and encounter a bit of sand and the TC will cut your power just when you need it to accelerate away from the car coming at you. I had to adjust my driving to never enter traffic if an amount of extra acceleration was needed.

I understand the newer models work well; but I would have to drive one to see for myself.
 
Traction control may have assisted this event, but enough to avoid it?

"a friend of mine crashed when she had to swerve onto some wet railroad tracks to avoid a car. As she described it the engine revved, the rear wheel spun, and she went sideways and high sided." By that description I'd assume this was multi lane traffic over a set of tracks that angled across the road.

I am a strong advocate that the rider must assess ALL aspects of the riding environment to avoid reactionary measures. Sure, its really easy for me to asses this at my desk. But factors like wet road/railroad tracks/traffic interaction sounds like many clues to be ready and to avoid close proximity to a car before entering the area. All relates to effective scanning/searching before getting there.

Tracion control is a good assist system, but the best "system" is and always will be between the rider's ears. Traction control starts in the brain and works at the eyes, hands and feet of the rider. Hope she's up and riding again!
 
Traction control allows for sloppy work at the controls. I'm not saying that it might not prevent some crashes, but my basic feeling is that it is just one more electronic gizmo separating me from the machine. I too drove a bunch of Subarus, but I learned how to make them slide and the one that came with ABS got its fuse pulled because I could stop faster using the transmissin and brakes together to make sure I never locked up more than two wheels at a time. They were also all manual gear boxes which does make a difference.

In regards to the Sequoia comment, Toyota traction control and ABS is overzealous in my 2008 Prius as well. Without snow tires, it flat out won't get out of its own way in the snow because the traction control won't allow any spin.

Because so much of bike control comes from factors beyond the computers control, I think the number of accidents which can be prevented through ABS and TC is limited relative to what can be done with four wheels. The computers can basically take over brake and throttle control. In a car, controlling four wheels independently, steering angle is the ony thing the car isn't taking over. On a bike, that isn't the case, and how you turn the bike changes relative to speed. Traction control and ABS may assist a rider is certain situations, but they can't save the rider from him / herself.

That said, learning how to control a bike in the dirt is some of the best training for how to handle situations on the street where you are at the limits of traction. It lets you find your limits and crash when you make mistakes with few significant consequenses.
 
I've just placed an order for a 2012 GSA, and the "Enduro ASC" is a mandatory option for the new bike.

I have traction control in both my VW Jetta GLI and 4x4 Toyota Tundra, and I wouldn't get another vehicle (2 or 4 wheeled) without it.

Here's why I want it: I live in the Seattle-area. Our region is very hilly - and also wet. There are several stop signs and controlled intersections along my commute that are on hills. When the roads are wet, and when there are grease and oil patches at the "stop line", my non-ASC RTP will occasionally spin the rear tire while leaving the stop line. I'll retard the throttle and try to get the wheel to regain traction, but in the meantime, the centrifugal forces from the spinning rear tire are trying to swing the back end of the bike to the right. With ASC, this will no longer happen.

My tires will last longer, I'll be a safer rider, and I won't have to wonder any more if my rear tire is going to spin-out "THIS TIME".

I've also been known to get caught out in the snow. Just last week it started snowing while I was at work, so I had to bail early so I could get home before the roads were impassible. My rear tire was spinning through a couple inches of slushy snow by the time I got home 40 minutes later, and in a few spots, if I didn't have any momentum, I would have been stopped in my tracks with a spinning rear tire shooting slush and snow out the back.

It's one thing to rooster-tail dirt out the back when playing off-road, but it's an entirely different matter to rooster-tail snow out the back, with the rear end of the bike trying to pass the front end of the bike as it slides around looking for traction.
 
It might be because it is first generation; but the traction control on my Sequoia is dangerous.

Pull out from a side road and encounter a bit of sand and the TC will cut your power just when you need it to accelerate away from the car coming at you. I had to adjust my driving to never enter traffic if an amount of extra acceleration was needed.

I understand the newer models work well; but I would have to drive one to see for myself.

What year is your Sequoia? I have a 2005 Tundra that likely has the same system. I drive my Tundra in all kinds of snow around here and up to our ski areas, so I have, quite literally, thousands of miles of experience driving my Tundra in the snow.

Given the example you've provided above, and if we have the same systems, "gunning" the engine when the rear tires have no traction will only cause your truck to spin out. If you're pulling out of a side street or driveway and turning to the right, your truck will spin clockwise as the rear tires try to get traction.

If your tires can't grip the road surface, more power is only going to make the situation worse. Closing the throttle is precisely what needs to happen. If the traction control on your truck engages, your truck is telling you that you need to adjust your driving technique to the conditions, as it's not safe to punch it and jump out into traffic when roads are icy or covered in snow.

In these situations, you should be in four-wheel drive - at least until you safely pull out into and match up with the speed of traffic.
 
My new GS happens to have ASC, don't know that it is a necessity, and can't say I have noticed it other than one instance when both wheels seemed not to be in contact with the road surface the engine seemed to slow dramatically. Seemed like a small price increase relative to the purchase price and I can turn it off.

Back around 85 I would never have considered ABS until we saw the BMW demo at the San Francisco motorcycle show, that sold me on the idea of ABS which is finally becoming something more accepted in the industry. Maybe BMW needs another demonstration like the ABS to show us what it is for.

In the meantime.....like I said, I can turn it off.
 
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