• Welcome Guest! If you are already a member of the BMW MOA, please log in to the forum in the upper right hand corner of this page. Check "Remember Me?" if you wish to stay logged in.

    We hope you enjoy the excellent technical knowledge, event information and discussions that the BMWMOA forum provides. Why not take the time to join the club, so you can enjoy posting on the forum, the club magazine, and all of the discounts and benefits the BMWMOA offers?

    Want to read the MOA monthly magazine for free? Take a 3-month test ride of the magazine; check here for details.

  • NOTE. Some content will be hidden from you. If you want to view all content, you must register for the forum if you are not a member, or if a member, you must be logged in.

Tier 1 Gasoline

Andy, where did you get the 4% less mileage using ethanol?

My Ford F150, two Audi's and the R1100 all got 10% less....

Just curious.

Ken

Either way on the %, we were taliking about this same thing when I went back to college almost 40 years ago! Not a hijack of your thoughts as you are on the same soap box I stay on. E-85 makes an even worse argument, does it not?
 
The 4% number comes from the reduction of energy in the fuel. In the real world many people see a greater reduction because their engines were designed to get maximum power out of gasoline. Reports of a greater than 4% reduction are common.
 
All gas is the same as it is refined by the same process. the difference between a name brand (top tier) and convince store gas is the additive/detergent package that is added to the refined product by each individual brand.
Yup. My Dad once worked in the laboratories at Texaco, and he insisted that it was the same gasoline that satisfied the same federal regulations which no oil company spent the money to exceed, so he went to the cheapest gas station he could find. I've personally seen the the large and unmarked gasoline trucks finish filling the underground tanks at a national brand gas station, only to go to a no-name gas station and fill their tanks out of the same truck.

It reminds me of an old Mad Magazine cartoon from my childhood (bear with me, here). The first frame of the cartoon showed three slots in the post office's wall. Above one slot was written "Airmail." Above the next was written "First Class Mail." And above the last was written "Third Class Mail." The next frame was a view of the same wall but from the other side. Under the three slots was one huge box extending from one slot to the other into which all the mail fell. :laugh

Gasoline marketing is the same way.
 
I'll just offer this from last summer; I was filling up at the local BP station when an unmarked tanker pulled in. After paying I saw the driver get out, connect his fill hose and start writing something in his log while off-loading the gasoline. He looked up as I asked, "do you know if there is anywhere around here where I can buy non-ethanol gas?" He replied no, around here it all comes from either Pittsburgh or St Clairsville Ohio and it all has 10% alcohol added there. He said "I thought you were going to ask me if there is any difference in the gasoline between one brand or another"? Naturally I asked "is there"? He laughed and said "no, it's all the same. I refill different brand and unbranded stations from the same truck load, save your money".
On one hand I want to believe I get my money's worth buying Chevron, BP, etc because the driver adds the correct amount of the appropriate additive at each station stop. On the other hand I seriously doubt this is the case much of the time. Most likely a minimum additive package mixture is added at the bulk plant and all stations served get the same brew.
 
And in all these years they haven't been sued!

That truck driver puts the additives in at the station.

There isn't a small additive tank on the tankers. It is ALL done at the terminals while loading. Only difference on the trucks is the octane rating in each compartment. Regular and premium.
Remember post 's # 36 & 45 from typ181r90? An insiders view that I have witnessed as well.

But if it makes you happy to believe it's all on the up & up, good with me :whistle
 
And in all these years they haven't been sued!

That truck driver puts the additives in at the station.

The driver does no such thing, neither do the people running the station. Why haven't they been sued? I don't know, maybe it's the same reason we don't get 80mpg VW Polo diesels in the USA or any of the assortment of highly efficient Euro cars. Maybe because as I've said in earlier posts, the oil companies buy oil from each other and wouldn't be able to if the product couldn't be considered fungible.

There isn't a small additive tank on the tankers. It is ALL done at the terminals while loading. Only difference on the trucks is the octane rating in each compartment. Regular and premium.
Remember post 's # 36 & 45 from typ181r90? An insiders view that I have witnessed as well.

But if it makes you happy to believe it's all on the up & up, good with me :whistle


I've mentioned my experiences to other people and on other forums and the response is usually the same as it is here. People have such a strong brand loyalty to gas companies and just refuse to believe the facts. I can understand people's loyalty to auto/motorcycle manufacturers and a variety of other things, but oil companies operate like cartels and are out to give people the absolute minimal to maximize profit.

I think I'm done arguing about it, it's just like getting involved in an argument about religion or politics
 
People have such a strong brand loyalty to gas companies and just refuse to believe the facts. I can understand people's loyalty to auto/motorcycle manufacturers and a variety of other things, but oil companies operate like cartels and are out to give people the absolute minimal to maximize profit.

Well, you should get with your Congressman and haul a bunch of Chevron exectives before Congress and have them explain how there's really no Techron in there. You'd both have jobs for life and one of you could be President.
 
And in all these years they haven't been sued!

That truck driver puts the additives in at the station.

I would guess that the same additives are called different names by different companies.

The driver doesn't do it because he would have a problem with the proper amount.
 
That article is a good overview of the issues. It's over five years old so it did not have Exxon as a Top Tier gas which it now is.
 
I think Tier 1 gasoline is claimed to be an improvement over standard gasoline. Bottled water is claimed to be an improvement over standard tap water. They both make the buyer feel better. I don't buy bottled water.
 
REC 90 Gasoline

I am visiting FL at the moment (without my RT), and I see here in Key Largo that there are a couple of stations selling what is called "REC 90." This seems to be a product which has no ethanol in it, and is made by Marathon Oil. It appears to be intended for small recreational engines, which down here, I believe means marine engines. I have not checked the price yet, but imagine it's higher than the 10% ethanol mix.

I looked at the puregas.org app in my iPhone and there are a bunch of stations (including Sunoco) selling ethanol-free gas down here. Just what you'll need for your boat, but maybe not for riding your H-D down a very long dead-end road to Key West...
 
My recent trip to the local BMW dealer is sort of what prompted my original thread question. There I saw what I thought was a premature build-up on the valves. BMW has been recommending their fuel treatment (Techron in BMW bottle) to keep these high performance contraptions running for some time. I would have to come to the conclusion that adding your own additive package-such as Techron-once in a while, will probably save some fuel related grief. And now for low tec....
Well, maybe not Tier 1...I just "winterized" 10 engines with the VP Racing fuel. 93 octane refined gas, no ethanol. The engines haven't run this well in some time and the exhaust smell....it was like a friendly aroma from the past-even from the 2 stroke engines. I also added Formula X2 as a longevity treatment.
 
Top Tier

I don't understand this stuff, having been booted out of high school chemistry eons ago.
Ethanol is a form of alcohol, is it not? That substance mixes with water, no? Wouldn't it be logical to winterize a vehicle by topping up the fuel tank with something that hold condensates (water) in solution rather than allowing it to pool at low places in the tank?
I understand wanting ethanol-free fuel when you are actually riding, but for storage I don't see that as desirable.
 
Last edited:
I am visiting FL at the moment (without my RT), and I see here in Key Largo that there are a couple of stations selling what is called "REC 90." This seems to be a product which has no ethanol in it, and is made by Marathon Oil. It appears to be intended for small recreational engines, which down here, I believe means marine engines. I have not checked the price yet, but imagine it's higher than the 10% ethanol mix.

I looked at the puregas.org app in my iPhone and there are a bunch of stations (including Sunoco) selling ethanol-free gas down here. Just what you'll need for your boat, but maybe not for riding your H-D down a very long dead-end road to Key West...

Not sure what your last sentence is implying. I just rode to key west and back. Used about 4 fill ups of the Rec 90 which is all over florida. Bike ran fine/not better. Mileage about the same as always. No diff that I noticed and I have about 200k on the 12GS so know the bike.
 
Ethanol containing gasoline is bad for engines that sit like boats, lawn mowers, antique cars, and carbureted motorcycles. I don't know why, but the complaints of people who needed engine repair are legion. That is why you find ethanol free gasoline in marinas and areas that see lots of boats.
 
I don't understand this stuff, having been booted out of high school chemistry eons ago.
Ethanol is a form of alcohol, is it not? That substance mixes with water, no? Wouldn't it be logical to winterize a vehicle by topping up the fuel tank with something that hold condensates (water) in solution rather than allowing it to pool at low places in the tank?
I understand wanting ethanol-free fuel when you are actually riding, but for storage I don't see that as desirable.

Read this:
http://epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf

and this:
http://nationalpetroleum.net/Ethanol-Water-Phase-Separation-facts.pdf

Coming from and outdoor power equipment background, the biggest issues I have seen revolve around storing an engine with a partial tank of fuel. Here in Ohio, we have high humidity and significant temperature swings throughout both winter and spring / summer / fall storage seasons, depending on the equipment in question. Having a partial tank of fuel allows for more air circulation, thus allowing more evaporation and breakdown of fuel, and more absorption of water. Fuel containing ethanol is more delicate in this regards and is prone to handing out harsh punishment to those who take a cavalier approach to fuel storage.

Corrosion casued by sparated ehanol / water blends can lead to costly repairs. Just having to drain stale fuel from a piece of equipment, replace fuel filter(s) and clean the remaining residue can get expensive at shop labor rates. Using a stabilizer toward the end of an operating season and topping off the tank with fresh, stabilized fuel before storage seems to be the best bet for good performance at the beginning of the next operating season. Running an engine 'til it stalls out leaves some remaining fuel to decompose and gum things up, and it really isn't a good idea when a fuel pump is involved. Even manually draining a fuel syustem isn't perfect as drying out rubber and plastic componnents (especially those which are older amd not designed with ethanol in mind, can lead to cracking and component failure / fuel leaks.

Using fuel without ethanol is great if it is available. Storage in a climate controlled area is wonderful, but not feasible for most of us. Using a fuel stabilizer (with fresh fuel) and keeping the tank topped off before periods of storage is easy and in the majority of cases, quite sufficient. Keep in mind that even with a stabilizer, fuel won't stay fresh forevever. As often as possible, get out and ride. It is good for your bike and your smile. :deal

Getting back to the Walt's post, using E-10 fuel when returning to service after storage can help absorb any water that may have accumulated during storage, as long as the fuel you are getting has little water in it from the station. Fuel without ethanol is better for the storage period. Either way, fuel stabilizer (added to fresh fuel) and a full tank is key.
 
oxygenated fuel

Interesting reading, RXCRider. Thanks for posting those. It's odd that there is no letter head or other key to help identify the organization from which the memo comes. Do you know it origin? What I take away from them (the first memo particularly) is that stored fuel that has a bit of ethanol is less likely to suffer phase separation -- which is what I questioned in my other post.
That is a relief to me since gasoline with ethanol is all I can find hereabouts. I'm also relieved to read that the steps generally advocated on boards such as this one (top up the tank and use a fuel stabilizer) are very effective in preventing problems.
 
I believe the first one to be an internal EPA memo which they decided to post on their website:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/gasolinefuels/winterprograms/index.htm

The second one is from Veeder Root showing how their storage tank technology helps in identifying pahse seaparation before it becomes an issue for end consumers.

While ethanol can absorb more water before phase separation occurs, there are a few issues which make it less than ideal for storage.
- Because its saturation point rises and falls with temperature, it can absorb water during a period of warm, humid weather and then separate as the fuel cools.
- It absorbs water from the air

- When phase separation occurs, it is possible to get three layers: (sometimes) water, water saturated ethanol, and reduced octane gasoline.
--- Water is corrosive.
--- water saturated ethanol can damage plastic and rubber components and is corrosive.
--- the reduced octane gasoline can cause pre-ignition or knocking.

- I suspect that it is related to storage practices, but E-10 fuel goes stale more quickly than straight gasoline. If stored properly for less than a year, it doesn't seem to be much of an issue, but improper (and maybe extended) storage is not as forgiving as it used to be.

- Ethanol blended in fuel (even at 10%) can damage fuel system components of some older bikes. (it was dissolving the fiberglass tank on my friend's BSA) This can be an issue regardless of whther the bike is in storage or operation.

- Just as ethanol can dissolve a fiberglass tank, it can dissolve and loosen old gum / varnish deposits in a dirty tank or carburetor causing issues.

Here is another article which looks like it is accurate; just substitue bike for boat.
http://www.a1distributors.net/files/Ethanol_dos_and_donts.pdf
 
Back
Top