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2009 RT U-Joint Failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by sloride
Has Kawasaki,Yamaha and Honda figured out how to make them bulletproof?





My post was simply a question. If I had to answer the question myself I would say thay have. I'm not saying there has never been a failure but bullet proof like a BMW boxer engine

Can't say I have ever heard of a GW drive shaft failing and Kawasaki does ok with the 1500/1600 Vulcans. The u-joints go eventually, but not with the low miles I have read here. I think a shaft assembly for a 1600 Nomad is around $300.
 
My confidence in the R1200RT is severly shaken. A 2009 with only 37,000 miles has a U-joint failure. Really? Are you kidding me!! Just truly disappointed. 37,000 miles is next to nothing in my book. With the proper care, I thought this bike was built to last several hundred thousand miles. I thought it was indestructable and desinged to last. It's certainly one of the reasons that factored into my deision making process to purchase this bike. Its just inexcusable not to mention a safety hazard. Is it a design specification flaw or poor quality control standards? Either way, the end result is not good. Both conditions will mean additional failures are bound to occur. I'm just not as enamoured with the bike as I used to be. Please take the time to report this to the NHTSA as it is a safety concern.
 
Returning from the Salem Rally this year my buddy and I were headed for the Lolo pass in mid afternoon and took the smaller and twisty-er option east from Lewiston ID to Kooskia ID via Hwy 95, 13 and finally to 12. As we got on Hwy 13 and ready to enjoy it's curves we ran into some construction. They had slathered a lot of tar on the road and had mixed it with the gravel crush. Normally this congeals and packs pretty good but this day the temperature was over 35C (very hot for this Canuck!) and the mixture was more like liquid gravel. We were stopped as a group of two bikes and the Flagman checked our bikes (my 2008 RT and a friend's 2007 FJR - both shaft). He explained that the day before a group of Harley's went through a section like we had and "tore up" their drive belts and were out of commission. We were waved through with a simple 'ride safe'. By the time we got to Kooskia the inside of each of our wheels had 3 inches of liquid gravel stuck inside but no issues whatsoever with the drivetrain. Just one real world example where the shaft drives on the BMW and Yamaha bikes were superior for the particular road conditions we encountered.
 
Returning from the Salem Rally this year my buddy and I were headed for the Lolo pass in mid afternoon and took the smaller and twisty-er option east from Lewiston ID to Kooskia ID via Hwy 95, 13 and finally to 12. As we got on Hwy 13 and ready to enjoy it's curves we ran into some construction. They had slathered a lot of tar on the road and had mixed it with the gravel crush. Normally this congeals and packs pretty good but this day the temperature was over 35C (very hot for this Canuck!) and the mixture was more like liquid gravel. We were stopped as a group of two bikes and the Flagman checked our bikes (my 2008 RT and a friend's 2007 FJR - both shaft). He explained that the day before a group of Harley's went through a section like we had and "tore up" their drive belts and were out of commission. We were waved through with a simple 'ride safe'. By the time we got to Kooskia the inside of each of our wheels had 3 inches of liquid gravel stuck inside but no issues whatsoever with the drivetrain. Just one real world example where the shaft drives on the BMW and Yamaha bikes were superior for the particular road conditions we encountered.

I don't see the logical connection based on the previous arguments. I don't think anyone thought a belt drive would solve the problem of u-joint failures on BMW motorcycles.
 
I don't see the logical connection based on the previous arguments. I don't think anyone thought a belt drive would solve the problem of u-joint failures on BMW motorcycles.

I should have inserted this quote from earlier in the thread for clarity:
" I bet the prior owner of your bike, who went with the Road King, hasn't has a defective U-joint yet. Perhaps BMW should consider going to belt drives on the big Rs, like they have on some of the 650s and 800s. I know their ads use to say shaft was the only way to go, but since they haven't figured out how to make them as bullet-proof as their engines, it might be a good alternative....it works for Harley and they're pushing more weight and more torque in most instances."
 
I should have inserted this quote from earlier in the thread for clarity:
" I bet the prior owner of your bike, who went with the Road King, hasn't has a defective U-joint yet. Perhaps BMW should consider going to belt drives on the big Rs, like they have on some of the 650s and 800s. I know their ads use to say shaft was the only way to go, but since they haven't figured out how to make them as bullet-proof as their engines, it might be a good alternative....it works for Harley and they're pushing more weight and more torque in most instances."

With a longitudinal engine, belt drive is less than optimal. For DP bikes, chain would be better than belt anyway. That said, if Honda, Kawasaki and Yamaha can make reliable shaft drives, BMW could too. They did once upon a time.
 
There are a few things that immediately come to mind looking at the failure photos.

1) Compared to cage u joints the bits are small yet rpm will be about the same meaning heat loads will go up faster if lubes or bits fail.
2) The paralever (or equivalent) doesn't exist in (most) cages and between it and the fact that its a bike with a very different suspension and axle location method from a cage, also much shorter than most cages, it is likely the vibration modes of this system are very different.

I'd bet a few bucks that a serious vibration analysis of this design will show that some dimensional combinations, perhaps in conjunction with certain road surfaces, produce a vibration that pounds those rear bearings to death, exacerbated by their fairly small size.

It should not be difficult at all to make these bulletproof but the designers need to do the homework- no doubt guys who design these systems for a living can look at these failures and have a pretty good idea what's killing them, might or might not match mine.
 
There are a few things that immediately come to mind looking at the failure photos.

1) Compared to cage u joints the bits are small yet rpm will be about the same meaning heat loads will go up faster if lubes or bits fail.
2) The paralever (or equivalent) doesn't exist in (most) cages and between it and the fact that its a bike with a very different suspension and axle location method from a cage, also much shorter than most cages, it is likely the vibration modes of this system are very different.

I'd bet a few bucks that a serious vibration analysis of this design will show that some dimensional combinations, perhaps in conjunction with certain road surfaces, produce a vibration that pounds those rear bearings to death, exacerbated by their fairly small size.

It should not be difficult at all to make these bulletproof but the designers need to do the homework- no doubt guys who design these systems for a living can look at these failures and have a pretty good idea what's killing them, might or might not match mine.

MG uses a similar system. Do those drives experience similar problems?

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This looks like something that might happen if one were to drop it into 1st or 2nd going 50+ and then drop the clutch. Seen it before.... teaching my 16 yo daughter how to drive a stick :banghead
 
Interesting thread...Over at my normal hangout..ADV Rider..35-40,000 miles is all we expect out of driveshafts..just too many of them die around then, no one get's too suprised by it....yes it's bs..but whaddya gonna do?

I have been repairing them with servicables..simply centering the u joint on a lathe then welding a washer over the cap..
 
Interesting thread...Over at my normal hangout..ADV Rider..35-40,000 miles is all we expect out of driveshafts..just too many of them die around then, no one get's too suprised by it....yes it's bs..but whaddya gonna do?

I have been repairing them with servicables..simply centering the u joint on a lathe then welding a washer over the cap..

U-joints are easily serviced if one can get the OEM apart....i agree with vegasgsa about the process.....

maybe an exchange repair service is in order (if there is not one already)....have a couple refurbished and ready to ship....RT owner sends his in for an exchange....just thinking out loud here....BeemerBoneYard and FleaBay do not have driveshafts for the 10+RT....but many others....

wyman
 
Go back and look at the photo where the joint is all apart. Notice the one leg of the cross piece that has worn tapered almost like it was in a crude pencil sharpener.

That wear took a lot of miles. I found the same type of wear on Voni's R1100RS. The insidious thing was that there was no discernible vibration at the riders seat/bars/pegs. Then one day seemingly all of a sudden it got ugly - bang!

Having had my hands on several driveshafts with shot, but not yet exploded U joints, I have concluded that they don't last forever and ought to be periodically examined/inspected by hand. Yes - taken out and manipulated to look for any binding, or any detectable play in any axis for either the front or rear joint.
 
Easy enough to repair with serviceable joints..I've done a few..

Brunos in Canada does them..

Here's what I do..fairly simple
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/bksgsvegas/9638958084/" title="IMGP0332 by vegas1200gsa, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/9638958084_44ca0b574f_z.jpg" width="640" height="640" alt="IMGP0332"></a>
 
Go back and look at the photo where the joint is all apart. Notice the one leg of the cross piece that has worn tapered almost like it was in a crude pencil sharpener.

That wear took a lot of miles. I found the same type of wear on Voni's R1100RS. The insidious thing was that there was no discernible vibration at the riders seat/bars/pegs. Then one day seemingly all of a sudden it got ugly - bang!

Having had my hands on several driveshafts with shot, but not yet exploded U joints, I have concluded that they don't last forever and ought to be periodically examined/inspected by hand. Yes - taken out and manipulated to look for any binding, or any detectable play in any axis for either the front or rear joint.

That's interesting. You would think you would feel some vibration, but I guess it depends on the type of road, speed and the failure.

I guess it varies with the type of bike, rider and riding that is being done; but at what mileage would you recommend they be examined, etc?

Thanks,

E.
 
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That's interesting. You would think you would feel some vibration, but I guess it depends on the type of road, speed and the failure.

I guess it varies with the type of bike, rider and riding that is being done; but at what mileage would you recommend they be examined, etc?

The paralever driveshafts are not as simple as they seem at first glance. And there are several factors at play. Problems first showed up on the Airhead GS bikes, where about 30K miles seemed to be a good time to worry about failure. Two factors were at work: 1) BMW didn't pay any attention to proper U joint phasing, and 2) the angular deflection of the joints was greater than the U joints liked. On cars with this much angle in the front axles they have been using CV joints for decades.

On Oilheads, the first several failures I heard of happened between 125K and 200K so I used to say start checking at 100K. Then I started hearing about 75K, 50K, 37K etc.

There are variables: how heavily or lightly loaded the bike is - heavy load means less angular deflection (good) but arguably more stress due to the load (bad).

Phasing: there is a right way and wrong way to phase paired U joints. They come out of the factory every which way. The manuals don't prescribe the correct way either. Improperly phased U joints add considerable stress to the joints. So for optimal life they ought to be phased correctly.

BMW has made some changes. I'm not sure but don't think the latest shafts can be changed. The R11xx shafts can need to be properly phased.

On our bikes I am certain the shafts are correctly phased because I did it, and I know how we load and ride the bikes. So I am comfortable having gone in once to not do it again until 100K miles. But then, every 24K or so until I am tired of it and just replace the shaft.

This advice would, of course, be of no help to the guy or gal who got the shaft so to speak at 30K miles.
 
Interesting thread.....there have been some comments about how the destroyed u-joint looked. I have seen this many times on equipment and barring something out of the ordinary- like on a brush hog, letting grass and debris build up and the heat baking the u-joint, it's 9 out 10 times a lube issue in the joint itself. Classic example is when pick-up truck makers eliminated locking hubs on the front axle- and grease fittings on the front wheel drive shafts. Do the u-joints come from the factory with a grease fitting?
OM

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Interesting thread.....there have been some comments about how the destroyed u-joint looked. I have seen this many times on equipment and barring something out of the ordinary- like on a brush hog, letting grass and debris build up and the heat baking the u-joint, it's 9 out 10 times a lube issue in the joint itself. Classic example is when pick-up truck makers eliminated locking hubs on the front axle- and grease fittings on the front wheel drive shafts. Do the u-joints come from the factory with a grease fitting?
OM

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4x4s went to a unit bearing, which is like what is used on FWD cars. It doesn't require any service, but when it goes, it goes. A full floating hub requires routine maintenance, but is stronger and will last a long time. Some trucks can be converted from a unit bearing to full floating axle on the front axle, but it's not cheap. A CV joint might be better in the BMW, like what is used in half shafts.
 
My point being is that a u-joint was spinning all the time- and there was no way to lube it. Sure it had support and the wear is/was worse when there was a 4X4 load actually on it. The first CV-joints that I remember in regular automotive us was in the small for Bronco- front drive shaft. Owners of these shafts suffered loss from theft more than mechanical failure....the "new" CV joints were not properly serviced (due to being new) and the ball part went bad rather quick and they were very costly back in the early 70's.
Bearings need grease or lube especially needle bearings under high load/torque.
OM
 
My point being is that a u-joint was spinning all the time- and there was no way to lube it. Sure it had support and the wear is/was worse when there was a 4X4 load actually on it. The first CV-joints that I remember in regular automotive us was in the small for Bronco- front drive shaft. Owners of these shafts suffered loss from theft more than mechanical failure....the "new" CV joints were not properly serviced (due to being new) and the ball part went bad rather quick and they were very costly back in the early 70's.
Bearings need grease or lube especially needle bearings under high load/torque.
OM

Point taken and modern CV joints on front wheel (and some rear wheel drive too) will last 150K miles or more before needing service and it won't cost $900 to service them either. There are better ways...
 
Point taken and modern CV joints on front wheel (and some rear wheel drive too) will last 150K miles or more before needing service and it won't cost $900 to service them either. There are better ways...
Yep and a huge percentage of those CV's have had the boot ripped in one way or another. I even use a lube hypodermic needle to inject free flowing grease into non- lube-able ball joints and then give them a schmere of silicone to seal the hole...
When those tiny needles in a u-joint start to wear out, the end comes soon. Do you ever remember a car going by with the "odd squeak"?
Without a new u-joint the shaft ends up looking like the picture.
 
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