Laser, Radar, Jammer...what?

cscatola said:

..... as much as a "police discretion emitter." This device causes the approaching LEO to use discretion when dealing with a former member of service and issue a friendly slow-down warning instead of a summons . Too bad no one has been able to perfect this technology yet...

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Absolutely! Your suggestion is not new, ( I have had previous experiences with the "Discretion Emiitter". The problem is this device does not plug-in the cerebral batteries on this type of character on duty. One thing that always urk the crap out of me was working with the type who use the badge as a power stick rather than a call to serve...luckly, there were never too many of them--they either mellow out with experience or leave.

Nando said:

I thought the RADAR speed detectors were banned because cops sued for getting cancer from using these things? I was under the impression there were only LASER guns nowadays...

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Still lots of radar in use, although the bands used have shifted over the years. If your X band goes off you're likely close to a shopping center.

As noted by others, you get just about zero warning with laser due to its very narrow beam. When your laser detector goes off there are three things you can do:

1. look at the tail lights in front of you. If you see some bright LED lights they might have caused the detector to trigger. Ignore the warning.
2. look for one of the new LED billboards. They have been known to trigger detectors. Ignore the warning.
3. Look at your speedo. If 10-15 MPH (maybe less on some areas) over the limit (or more!) pull over. You are going to get a ticket.

My detector sits unused in the trunk of my wife's car. I took it off the bike about 2 years ago and haven't missed it.

cscatola said:

A "jammer," as tommcgee described, is a device that actively transmits signals back to the police car's speed measuring device in an attempt to confuse the unit and either make it not display your speed or display a speed that is lower than what you are actually traveling. These types of units are illegal in every state as far as I know.

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There is a distinction between radar jammers and laser "shifters" which are often called jammers, but jammer is a misnomer. Nobody is building and selling radar jammers legally. They are illegal in the US under FCC rules and have been for many years. There are plenty of products still sold in this category and they are pure snake oil. Google Rocky Mountain Radar scam if you need more info.

Laser is different. Laser shifters are legal except in Nebraska, Minnesota, Utah, California, Oklahoma, Virginia, Colorado, Illinois and Washington DC. This "which state" info came from radarbusters.com and I have no idea if it's up to date or not. It won't be long before they ARE illegal in every state, but we aren't there yet.

While shifters do work, I don't see the point of having a LEO putting a crosshair on your oncoming profile and then wondering why he isn't getting an accurate reading and I don't want to explain it to him at the side of the road.

As far as radar detectors go, they will tell you if radar is close by, but there are lots of crappy ones out there that never shut up from false alarms (like the V1), and using a detector is no guarantee you won't get tagged. You can still be paced, clocked by aircraft (be careful on the Maine Turnpike DAMHIK), and a bunch of other methods.

Ride with traffic. Keep your license.

No good news to solve this problem!

How about stealth bikes? ..

applicable links

http://www.1stradardetectors.com/laser-jammers/cheetah-m25-rider-laser-jammer/index.php
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gscBNYVQn_8
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http://www.radarbusters.com/
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http://www.stealthhog.com/motorcycle-laser-jammers.htm
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http://www.pashnit.com/product/cheetah_m27.html
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http://www.adaptivtechnologies.com/...id=221&zenid=1ee770fad7512419119fb6ab6d907683

I have Escort 8500s in both SAAB turbos and on my 1200RT and on any given day they save my butt several times. Yeah, on the RT I see triple digits regularly and nearly as often in the turbo Saabs. I'm seventy two this month and only one ticket in the past twenty years. I've been stopped several times but no tickets. Last one was amusing, young state trooper waved me over as I was passing a 600 series Mercedes sedan that had been playing with me for miles and at the time was on my 04RT. I had no traffic behind me and squatted down and stopped with maximum effort. Put bike on sidestand and waited for the officer to walk up. He was amazed. He apologized and said there must have been something wrong with his radar as nothing could stop in that short a distance at the speed his radar reported. No ticket, no warning, he rides a Harley on his days off.

If you wanna play, be prepared to pay. If I had all the money back I've spent on tickets in the last 43 years, I could buy another bike with cash.

rockbottom said:

I'm a bit surprised that the "visual" clocking would hold up in court if challenged. Couldn't the speeder just demand proof of the accuracy of the method?

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As part of Radar Certification (at least in Wisconsin), we also had to visually estimate the speed of test vehicles to an accuracy of 80% or greater, in order to be considered 'expert witnesses' in court, as well as document that we were spending the majority of our duty time in traffic.

Thought the bar was set high, but after plenty of training and time on the road, 90-95% is the norm.

I thought the RADAR speed detectors were banned because cops sued for getting cancer from using these things? I was under the impression there were only LASER guns nowadays...

Actually, you're half-right. When I first started out in law enforcement, we had radar transeivers mounted outside of the squad on the driver's side rear window.

Blasting radar waves in such close proximity to one's cranium didn't seem like a good idea (could explain me though?!), so I used it sparingly. Gave rise to some litagation.

Then officers were placing handheld radar guns in their laps during lulls in traffic, while still in the 'transmit' mode - basically microwaving their privates, with unfortunate results (and more litagation).

Now radar (still very common) involves fixed antennas on the front dash and rear window deck. Keeps Officer Friendly out of harm's way.

I've sat six feet behind a much larger and more powerful radar for many years now and i'm ok (I think ) ... of course most guys who fly jets with big radars end up having girls as it were (about a 70-30 ratio; at least significant enough of a deviation to notice).

Some interesting points on radars, and what can and cannot be done, but just to add my two cents.

Magic devices and idiot boxes are just that. Expecting a radar detector to save you in all instances at all times is just silly. Used properly, they can be a beneficial tool in your driving strategy if you feel the speed limits are inappropriate. No need for a morality/legality lecture here -- the fact is there are speed trap areas that change the speed limits rapidly and unreasonably with the goal of creating revenue for the local governance. Speed limits are also based on the abilities of the lowest common denominator (usually that sub 24yr old with the cell in their hand).

All that being said -- radar detectors do work and can have success even against "instant on" radars (which really arent instant on -- its just a function of the PRF of the pulsed radar). Since the radar beam is wide and reflective, even when used instant on, you can pick up the signal -- hopefully this comes from the LEO gunning someone ahead of you vs. just you. If its 1 v. 1 you may not have a chance, and as pointed out the professional in this realm is the cop with the eyeballs, not the driver who relies on a gauge. But remember that vision works both ways -- if the cop can see you, you should be able to see the cop. If you are not clearing and actively looking, you probably shouldnt be speeding; if you cant see down the road to whats ahead, then slow down.

Jammers can and do work -- provided you get the correct brand that has been independently certified -- but they too are just a tool. If you are going to use a jammer, it should be used in conjunction with a detector, and you should slow down immediately AND turn off the jammer once you are at the speed limit. Brute force denial obviates the required deception. This may be difficult and dangerous to do on a bike, so probably not a good idea.

Kevin pointed out that people only think their device saved them... this is true, but there are more impacts. Police presence both visual and through signals via a detector can also serve as a warning to a leadfoot to slow down when they might not otherwise. So even without pulling a person over the LEO can have his desired effect of slowing speeders down. Everyone is human and may not always be perfectly be paying attention to the posted limits vice the speed they are going. Most LEOs are actually pretty sympathetic to this, which is why there is such a high warning to ticket ratio. Besides, there are usually enough A-holes going way over the limit to take up their 'free' time.

In the end, I try to be clearing at all times, for dangers on the road, other drivers, and LEOs. The radar detector, when it goes off, is more often than not a reminder to slow down -- and knock on wood -- I haven't gotten a ticket on the bike yet.

cscatola said:

The officer's training and experience qualify them as "experts" in visual speed estimation, which allows them to testify to the accuracy of a "visual clocking." There are also other speed-related charges such as "speed not reasonable and prudent," which is a general catchall when an exact speed is not captured.



In NY, yes they certainly do.

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Holds up in Washington too, at least in some jurisdictions. I was waiting to give testimony in a municipal court once...the case ahead of ours was a young gent fighting a speeding ticket he'd received a few weeks previous.

His high priced attorney started going through his litany of questions to the officer on the stand about, "did you calibrate the radar, etc, etc." After 3 or 4 questions of this nature, the judge interruped. He wanted to "expedite" the hearing...So he asked the officer a few questions of his own...
Judge: "How long have you been a Police Officer?"
Officer: "34 years, your honor."
Judge: "How many years have you been writing speeding tickets?"
Officer: "34 years, your honor."
Judge: "Then in my court you don't need a radar gun, you're an expert witness regarding speeding vehicles."
Judge: (To the Defense attorney) "Any more questions of this officer?"

The defendant saw the handwriting on the wall and changed his plea to guilty. The judge being a nice guy actually reduced the imposed fine a few bucks...

It was an educational experience...and free of charge to the courtroom audience.

I've been interviewed on the side of the road a few times in my life, and being courteous and truthful has most often resulted in a mild warning. Don't use radar detectors, etc, but I have learned to keep my head up and drive/ride at reasonable speeds given conditions.

Cheers, BJ

I've often wondered! The official line is that the officer is an expert and can judge speed independent of the radar, and I've often been told that the officer sees the vehicle and judges it is speeding, and turns on the radar to verify the observation.

So why do they hit me with "instant on" when I'm going five miles under the limit?

On another note:

Cities that push solo/s to issue citations in order to raise revenues have also raised very bad PR and even more negative impression of government. The citizenry is experiencing the same lousy economic downturn, and having to pay for the "dumb ticket" over 10 mph, plus the insurance hike creates more animosity toward the politicians.

The traffic citations scheme is an obsolete and expensive game that ought to be replaced with another form of 'road safety' construct.

As a reflective example: I drive the speed limit in the military base along with everyone else who is also driving the speed limit...maybe the virtue lacking in civilian territory is 'respect'.

I see a lot of the "I was only going 5 over" bit on forums. Usually from folks on motorcycles on bike forums like this one. It's a pretty consistent statement. Frankly, it's kind of bogus in my experience. I heard the same from some of the folks I stopped for doing 1.5 times the limit, ie 45 in a 30 residential zone. I even had that one tried at a collision scene where the guy laid down 85 feet of skids through a stop sign before hitting the semi and folding the front of his car like an accordian all in a 25 zone.

My personal thought was the first 10 MPH was not a big deal outside of school zones with kids around. When you start hitting highway speeds (not all highways are interstates) inside the city in a 35 zone things are a bit different and there were way too many of those drivers to even think of wasting my time on a 5 over stop. There was no way I could come close to getting all those 15+ over to fret about the squeekers doing 5 over.

It also never ceased to amaze me the number of folks who felt entitled to drive any old way they wanted and to especially exercise their freedom of speech about my family, ancestry, profession and general weather outlook and still want me to not write a ticket. I especially liked the ones that thought it was intimidating to hear them tell me they were going to follow me home some day and either trash my house, get to my wife and kids or do something else "to get even".

I did occassionally meet the true adult who said something like "yup I wasn't paying attention and screwed up" or that they deserved the ticket. Those were the folks I let go. Unfortunately they were few and generally far between. The screamers, cussing experts and threatening folks, not a consideration. Even if they could carry on a tirade for more than 5 minutes without repeating themselves.

I got a ticket for speeding after the mandated 55 speed limit was brought out. I deserved it and paid it. No big deal and certainly was not the worst thing to ever happen to me.

I also drive the limit on the base where I am staying as well. It has nothing to do with respect, it has more to do with the base CO putting out the word that he instructed the Security Police to cite for 2 over.

Nando said:

Visual speed ticket do not hold up in court...maybe reckless driving charges might

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http://www.ohio.com/news/95461049.html

The trained eye of a police officer is sufficient to support a speeding ticket conviction, the Ohio Supreme Court ruled Wednesday in the case of a Fairlawn motorist.

In a 5-1 ruling, the court upheld the speeding ticket conviction of Mark Jenney based solely on the visual observation of a Copley Township officer.

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PGlaves said:

So why do they hit me with "instant on" when I'm going five miles under the limit?

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Yea, there may be a few officers that can, working the same area and learning to calibrate their eyes with the Radar. But for the most part it is BS!!! 90% of the speed traps the officer is hiding behind an object or over a hill, and they pull the trigger within a split second of you coming into sight. There is NO WAY they can be accurate, remember VASCAR, many states outlawed it because it was not accurate, and to use it the cop had to be able to have a clear view of the vehicle for several seconds.

Tickets are written that way due to laws concerning gathering of evidence and probable cause, for the most part is nothing but a lie by officers and supported by the courts to raise $$$.

pffog said:

Yea, there may be a few officers that can, working the same area and learning to calibrate their eyes with the Radar. But for the most part it is BS!!! 90% of the speed traps the officer is hiding behind an object or over a hill, and they pull the trigger within a split second of you coming into sight. There is NO WAY they can be accurate, remember VASCAR, many states outlawed it because it was not accurate, and to use it the cop had to be able to have a clear view of the vehicle for several seconds.

Tickets are written that way due to laws concerning gathering of evidence and probable cause, for the most part is nothing but a lie by officers and supported by the courts to raise $$$.

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Vascar is based on time over measured distance. By definition, it required time to use with the vehicle in sight. the target vehicle had to travel a set distance then the time to cover that distance determines the speed of the vehicle. Pretty darn simple. You can do the same thing with measured distance, a stop watch and calculator. Vascar just took the place of the tape measure, calculator and stop watch and performed the math for you. Time vs distance is the definition of speed. Radar and lidar do the same thing based on the return of the beam to the sending unit just much faster. Estimating speed does not take a long time of observation either and that is based on more than a few years of actual practice of that particular skill. Small clue here. Not all jurisdictions / courts require a visual estimate of speed, just the reading of the calibrated device. Same as a charge of burglary does not require the LEO witnessing the commission of the act, just collection of evidence.

As far as your contention that the majority of LEO's write tickets then commit perjury over something as petty as a citation is a rather broad brush there based on nothing more than your opinion. You are welcome to your prejudice but do not think that libel is much of an argument. I invite you to make that charge to the Internal Affairs Office of the Officer / Deputy's agency the next time you are cited. Please make sure you make the charge formal and sign the complaint. Courts have ruled that the accused LEO can then file a suit once the charge is investigated and found baseless.

Motor31 said:

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As far as your contention that the majority of LEO's write tickets then commit perjury over something as petty as a citation is a rather broad brush there based on nothing more than your opinion. You are welcome to your prejudice but do not think that libel is much of an argument. I invite you to make that charge to the Internal Affairs Office of the Officer / Deputy's agency the next time you are cited. Please make sure you make the charge formal and sign the complaint. Courts have ruled that the accused LEO can then file a suit once the charge is investigated and found baseless.

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Not all states are the same, but in NYS ALL speeding tickets read "Charges based on Officer's direct observation" and Speed verified by radar.

I have had my radar detector go off as soon as I see the light bar over a hill, and the windshield was not even visible, that means MY windshield was not visible to him, only the roof of the car, for a split second. I am sorry but I will never believe that he could judge my speed in a split second, only being able to see the roof of the car. If the human eye was that accurate, municipalities would never spend thousands on radar.

I would like to see a study on the accuracy of an officers visual observations, I would put money on it being very low in accuracy. My bet is a motorcycle with louder pipes traveling in 3rd gear wi8ll be estimated to be going 10 mph faster then the same bike in 6th doing the same speed.

Put your money where your mouth is. Feel free to make the study, better yet fund the study by a neutral organization that doesn't share your prejudice. Biased studies aren't of much use.

rockbottom said:

I'm a bit surprised that the "visual" clocking would hold up in court if challenged. Couldn't the speeder just demand proof of the accuracy of the method?

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The "visual estimation" is not what is presented in court. It is the "probable cause" for the LEO clocking you with a speed measuring device.

During my LEO days, you were not allowed to use radar until you had gone through training. This training began with learning to visually estimate the speed. You had to demonstrate proficiency at this with in a 5 mph window of accurracy. When you successfully completed training you moved on to actually using the radar gun.

Random spot checks were conducted by the radar training officers where they would ride with you and test your ability to visually estimate the speed. If you ever failed the random spot check, you were decertifed on the radar and had to repeat training.