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Harley-Davidson's aging biker problem

I must say, this is a very enlightening and enjoyable discussion. It is being discussed in a much less enlightening and much more accusatory and confrontational way on another board I frequent (I'll let you guess). Thanks to everyone for the considerate and considered input. :clap
 
I agree about the comments made about the younger population (30 and under) not being attracted to cycles, because of the societal and market changes which put thier focus on electronics, computers and activities which keep them in the house and inactive.

Lets face it, to regulary ride a cycle means you expose yourself to wind, noise, dirt, bugs, rain, traffic, possible serious injury (however, so does a bathtub), cold/heat, etc, etc, etc. Many of us multi-decade riders have adjusted ourselves to the realms of overlooking the uncomfortable side of riding to enjoy the ride itself. Yet to us, riding is so much easier than it ever was before. Still, we have all met many people who would never inconvenience themselves to the extent required to ride day after day. I for one, love it all! I hope to be riding well into my 70's and beyond, come on medical technology and make 70 the new 50!! Yet, changes are needed to draw in that younger market aside from just making new bikes.

In the past ten years, BMW has done a lot to expand their market. Who'd ever thought we'd see a real BMW dirt bike? Chain drive on a BMW sport bike?

Kevin Greenwald said this, "Munich would also be wise to do whatever is needed (i.e. water-cooling) to retain the R1200 boxer engine in the face of European emission standards, as the RT's and GS's account for a huge slice of their annual sales." I have already seen an article about a new BMW flat twin water cooled engine, with the intake on top and exhaust out the bottom of each cylinder. It was featured in the latest issue of BMW Motorcycle magazine.
 
Most motorcycle riders, I suspect, start out riding earlier rather than later in life. When I was 14 or 15, we regarded a Trail 90 or 110 as a beginner bike, and thought we'd really moved up in the world if we got a 175 or, better still, a 350. Quite honestly, the bikes weren't all that well made, but they were still cool, we loved them and they started us down the road to being life-long riders.

Now, however, what kid would be happy with a cheap 175cc Honda? The marketing of more and more expensive and faster bikes has certainly delivered higher profit margins to motorcycle companies, but it's done so at the expense of the desirable and affordable entry-level machines, which, over the long haul, results in fewer motorcycle riders.

Small motorcycles are no longer cool, but scooters are, and as has been said by others here, scooter riders don't necessarily make the transition to full-blown motorcycles. Buying a socially acceptable (aka, cool) bike for a typical 16- to 25-year-old usually means dropping several thousand dollars on a crotch rocket that costs as much as a good used car. Given that rather daunting entry-level barrier, it makes it difficult to groom another generation of motorcycle riders for a life-long love of riding.

In addition, motorcycle riding has become increasingly associated with the Harley mystique, and that whole image of black leather, doo rags, wallet chains and middle-aged beer guts just isn't something that most kids or young adults aspire to.
 
There is no denying that bikes are toys.

I'll deny it. :stick

While I'm certain that the bike = toy equation holds for most, it doesn't hold for all. There are folks out there who use a bike as basic transportation. To those folks a bike is certainly not a toy.

However, I agree that trying to convince the general public that bikes are not toys won't work. Another thing that won't work is trying to convince the public that bikes are somehow cheaper to operate than cars. At best I found it a wash when you added in the cost of helmets, gloves, rain gear, jackets and pants, etc. The savings in (usually) better gas mileage are quickly consumed in tire costs.
 
I'll deny it. :stick

While I'm certain that the bike = toy equation holds for most, it doesn't hold for all. There are folks out there who use a bike as basic transportation. To those folks a bike is certainly not a toy.

However, I agree that trying to convince the general public that bikes are not toys won't work. Another thing that won't work is trying to convince the public that bikes are somehow cheaper to operate than cars. At best I found it a wash when you added in the cost of helmets, gloves, rain gear, jackets and pants, etc. The savings in (usually) better gas mileage are quickly consumed in tire costs.

Deny it all you will :rofl

Keep in mind I am a daily rider not a mileage hound. I can not miles/year with the average rider in the MOA mileage contest yet measure days in saddle and I will leave most of them behind. Why am I a daily rider? Because it is fun and a fun way to commute on a regular basis. My transportation tool is a toy and my toy is a transportation tool. Works nicely for me.

The economics on an individaul basis may or may not work. I tend to believe when looking at individual riders you are right the best to hope for may be a wash when you include more than gas mileage.

The economic argument works better when you look at motorcycles as a part of a larger transportation system. If we can do a better job doing that we may be able to get some of the systemic obsticales to ridership taken care of.
 
I'll throw my hat into this one...

I grew up in a motorcycling family, so getting onto a bike was simply part of family life. In town my father and brother used theirs as commuters and during holidays we'd all tour together. However that was back in England.

I would not consider using a bike here in LA for daily transport because of the appalling lack of awareness and road craft shown by 99% of the drivers here. I actually stopped riding for over a decade after three friends were killed one summer, all killed by the idiocy of 'at fault' motorists.

I'm back on a bike again after a dozen year break, but I just use it for Sunday morning rides with friends, and the occasional trip up the coast to Laguna Seca and the Quail event on the back roads where there aren't any cars to speak of.

Honestly I could not imagine anything more foolhardy than using a bike as transport in LA, when I see so many crazy accidents caused by absolute idiocy on such a regular basis. I really don't think that the average motorist here will ever be as bike aware as they are in Europe where so many have been on scooters and mopeds, (it is all you drive 15-17 in many countries) and they likely also have many friends who ride. Here most people (thus motorists) don't even know someone who has a bike, thus we are a tiny minority and 'they' have no real awareness of us, in life or on the road.
 
I'm w/ Mika

I subscribe to Mika's point of view. I formerly commuted 100miles per day for ten years. Now 400 miles in one day, once a week (to Sac and back). Facilities make the difference. Peds/bicyclists/motorcyclists all have to be included as part of the overall transportation equation. We have a really big push for multimodal systems, but motorcycles are not always considered in that (as a Caltrans engineer I do my part of educating when I am consulted on a project). I feel lucky to have had covered parking facilities for the past 15 years within a block of my office in Sac.
 
Mr. Greenwald hit the nail right on the head. Right now it's money keeping young riders out of the sport. The economy is bad for everyone, but it's harder on young people.
 
Motorcycles

Great ideas posted thus far.
I believe that riding is "FUN"! We must sell the feeling of freedom and the enjoyment factor we have. I own a Motorcycle not for any economical purpose, but for the fun/freedom factor. We ride places we do not need to go because we simply enjoy riding. When I talk to people that do not own a bike I tell them how much fun it is and how I enjoy it. I tell them remember back in the 60's when people just used to go for a ride in their car because it was fun, well it is even more fun on a bike.

I wish BMW would make minor changes to include more low-maintenance shaft drive bikes on their smaller displacements. The "GS" line could really benefit from the removal of chains. I do not believe BMW can build bikes at costs as low as some other manufacturers and trying to sell a bike on an economic platform would be better suited other manufacturers like "Royal Enfield" for example. When I ask someone which of the (3) would you give up first (1) service, (2) Quality, (3) Price Most everyone will pay more for something better and that's what we have. The BMW Name and Logo command a great deal of respect and are seen by many as the best quality. I ride my bike with a great deal of pride and will continue to buy BMW as long as they continue to have superior machines. In conclusion riding is fun sell that!
 
This is great stuff.

In Philly, the PPA now has M/C only parking on certain Philly streets.

We should not look down on our scooter riding brethren either. Their use is exploding in Philly.


2 wheels beats 4 for education and perception purposes...

Scooters are how the world travels. Modern scooters are pretty freakin cool. Check out the Yamaha TMAX 500 or the Suzuki Burgman 400. I am trying to get my wife to ride and the 3 wheeled MP3 is where I'm trying to steer her eye. It would be a great grocery getter but I cannot justify another garage baby for myself.
 
:ha

You meet the nicest people on a Honda

03.jpg


Honda entered the U.S. market in 1959 with the step through Honda 50 motorcycle and helped spur the dramatic growth of the U.S. motorcycle market, as it became the best-selling brand in America. The company's memorable advertising campaign, "You meet the nicest people on a Honda," changed American's perception of two-wheel transportation. Maybe it is time for Madison Avenue types to come up with something like this again.

youmeet.gif


Or

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I grew up in a motorcycling family, so getting onto a bike was simply part of family life. In town my father and brother used theirs as commuters and during holidays we'd all tour together. However that was back in England.

I would not consider using a bike here in LA for daily transport because of the appalling lack of awareness and road craft shown by 99% of the drivers here. I actually stopped riding for over a decade after three friends were killed one summer, all killed by the idiocy of 'at fault' motorists.

I'm back on a bike again after a dozen year break, but I just use it for Sunday morning rides with friends, and the occasional trip up the coast to Laguna Seca and the Quail event on the back roads where there aren't any cars to speak of.

Honestly I could not imagine anything more foolhardy than using a bike as transport in LA, when I see so many crazy accidents caused by absolute idiocy on such a regular basis. I really don't think that the average motorist here will ever be as bike aware as they are in Europe where so many have been on scooters and mopeds, (it is all you drive 15-17 in many countries) and they likely also have many friends who ride. Here most people (thus motorists) don't even know someone who has a bike, thus we are a tiny minority and 'they' have no real awareness of us, in life or on the road.

Funny. I grew up in a family that had no one who was a motorcyclist. I got into motorcycling through some friends and coworkers. I commuted through LA traffic for more than a decade and thought it was by far the best way to get around.

There are crazy drivers everywhere, and if you aren't on the lookout for them, regardless of your location and traffic density, then they will get you. Perhaps some of the safest riding is possible when the freeway is at a total standstill and you can split lanes.

It's an odd thing -- most of my commuting was from the San Fernando Valley, a suburb of LA, into Santa Monica. That meant riding the I-405 freeway, 5 lanes wide in each direction and probably an hour and half commute in the evenings to go 35 miles. The freeway goes through the Sepulveda Pass and on the Valley side it makes a straight run down the side of the hills for 3 miles to the valley floor. Right at the bottom is an interchange with the US-101 freeway and there's also an exit to a main thoroughfaire. It is uncontrolled chaos going down that slope, with everyone delaying as long as they dare in the left lanes before diving into the right lanes to make an exit. You'll never be as alive as during those few minutes while trying to watch out for and drive for everyone else who is desparate to get home. The thing is, it was during that stretch of mayhem that often the solution to whatever programming problem I had left back at the office would pop into my head, completely unbidden. Very strange.
 
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that's malcolm smith riding the bike! :clap
 
I think the aging of the biker is partly due to the urbanization of the country. When we were growing up 40-50 years ago, we didn't have 4 wheeled transportation available or electronic gizmos to keep us occupied. We worked on and rode two wheeled contraptions (motor or human powered) to get around and keep us occupied (there was not a lot of things to do). We had a place to work on them and a place to ride them. Now, kids live in apartments, condos and in developments with very small lots where there is no place to ride or work on anything. Many families have multiple cars to take the kids to many different activities that leaves them little time to do anything else. Any spare time is taken up with video games, social networks and other things that didn't exist when we were growing up.

When kids are not exposed to things in their youth, they generally don't develop an interest later in life.

Modern society also wants instant gratification. They don't have the patience to take a pile of parts and turn it into a useful object. I remember taking an old bicycle frame, a go-cart rear wheel, a 16" bicycle front wheel, a chainsaw motor and turning it into the fastest mini-bike you ever saw. It went great until the chain broke and almost cut my foot off. I also couldn't stop without brakes.
 
I often ride to work. However, as I am in the patient care business, and that requires a certain professional presentation, I cannot ride on days when it is too hot (sweaty providers do not foster confidence in patients) or raining. Bikes are more viable as commuter vehicles in some areas, and for some jobs, than others.

Being 61 now (WOW!), I am also starting to contemplate what bike will be my last. A strange and scary thought, quite frankly. I'm not a trike kind of guy. When I am finally too old to balance and make the split second decisions required to safely ride, I will stop. So I am definitely part of the above demographic.

Dang it!:D

BTW - I agree many bikes of all kinds sit in garages. I have a friend with a two year old K1200GT with 7K on the clock, while my year old Wing has 15K. It's not just HD.

I believe I'm currently riding my last bike. A R1100R and I'm a young 62. The reason I bought it in the first place was to go to something lighter and more agile. It's a great all around bike and will haul 2 up or tour without problems in the power department.

I recently finished the 3 Flags Classic 2010 on the bike and although not the ideal touring bike with more wind than you'd get on a faired bike, custom ear plugs take care of the wind noise and a good aftermarket seat takes care of the butt issues.

I was at the median age for the 250 + riders on the classic and the brakedown of bikes was 109 Honda's ( mostly gold wings ), 48 BMW's & 47 Harleys. The rest where a smattering of the other makes. There were a few trikes & a spyder.

I saw some riders ( my opinion not their's ) that were past their prime riding days and should have taken something else up.

I'm a firm believer in ride what you want, just don't ask me to ride it but do realize when its time to move on. I've noticed that my balance and reflexes are not what they were when riding motorcyles at age 16. Yes I'm a smarter & more careful rider, have learned not to take chances & ride within my capabilities but accept that time marches on and we have to adapt. A trike is also not in my future.
 
I believe I'm currently riding my last bike. A R1100R and I'm a young 62. The reason I bought it in the first place was to go to something lighter and more agile. It's a great all around bike and will haul 2 up or tour without problems in the power department.

Don't be so sure. There are five or six of us here in the sticks that ride together on a regular basis. I'm 63 and am 4 or 5 years younger than the next youngest. Four of the five have purchased new or almost new motorcycles this year. Two of them are in their mid 70s and both bought new Jet-Skis this year. The best rider by far turns 75 in October and he rides a 2010 R1200GS. Virginia has a handicap plate for motorcycles so old/disabled riders can park near the door.
 
I'm 26, ride my airhead all year round (except when there's snow and ice on the road, tried that once, not my thing) and it's mostly my daily driver, the exceptions being when I need cargo room or I'm going with the wife somewhere (she's pregnant). I can't speak for my generation as a whole but here's the top three answers from the young people around me that I talk to about why they don't want a motorcycle.

1) The roads here in NJ are too dangerous and/or they know a classmate/friend/acquaintance that died on a bike. I can completely understand this and driving in the NY/NJ metropolitan area is mentally exhausting for alot of mc riders here, you either deal with it or you get a car. Alot of people tell me I'm crazy for riding and I tell them that I have to use my head like radar and constantly scan around me and react to traffic and most people don't want to deal with the risk. There's just too many idiots on the road that don't care and I personally know someone who was killed on his bike when he did nothing wrong

2) No one wants to spend $3000+ on a bike when a car can do more for less, especially when your income isn't yet disposable. Entry level bikes may help, but don't forget the Germans stopped using motorcycles in WWII for the same reason the Americans quit riding Harleys, it became much cheaper to manufacture K??belwagens and Jeeps and they did a lot more - you can't drive around with 3 friends when you're the first with a license on a motorcycle (though in NJ you can't do that anyway at that age even if it's in a car nowadays)

3) There aren't enough "destinations" where you can enjoy riding . There aren't any nice scenic routes in my immediate area, there is the shore and the appalachians, but immediately around me are just condos and strip malls


There are some interesting characteristics about the young guys I know that do ride as well. These might not speak for my generation of riders, but this is how it is with the people I know

For the most part everyone owns something vintage whether it be an old triumph, beemer, or a harley. The bikes are cheap, full of character (both good and bad), and you can work on them in the parking lot. My younger friends and coworkers couldn't get "new" Harleys from an economic standpoint and I don't think anyone really wants to. They're mid-life crisis bikes owned by wealthy men pretending to be something to they're not on the weekends - this is a common attitude of the younger bikers that I know, right or wrong. These same people (and they're quite a large group) at the same time make fun of me for owning a BMW because they see "old" guys on the highway with brand new RTs and GSs wearing neon clothing, blinking lights, and having every farkle under the sun attached to the bike. One co worker actually bought a new Buell, but only because the price was right and he needed something to ride until his old harley bobber is finished. Speaking for myself, I appreciate the simplicity, character, and ease of working on the old bikes and don't think I'd ever buy a new bike even if the price is right (I also own a VW thing, think simple).

Furthermore alot of guys are turned off by the computer control of modern machinery; even though alot of you guys think we'd rather be on facebook or wii than riding. In fact, to get philosophical, I think there's so much of that in our lives that we'd rather go back to mechanical and analog stuff. In fact I think this book hits the nail on the head. I get pissed with my 07 VW Rabbit's traction control and find myself turning it off when it snows or is very slippery (it thinks it knows better than you) as well as the computerized throttle control and ecu even. Give me something I can work on instead of a technician with a laptop

Fear still even plays a big part in riding with the guys that own motorcycles. Alot of guys won't go long distances or take their bikes out on a regular basis because of fear of idiot drivers on the highway just taking them out. Again, this might be more of an NJ problem than let's say the rural areas of the country.


I think motorcycle manufacturers really need to take a good look at why people who don't ride aren't riding and at the same time really try to get some insight as to what the younger riders are riding and why. Alot of problems can't be fixed, but many can
 
At 68 year years of age I enjoy riding my mc's now more than when I first started in 1968. Last month I traveled from Jax,FL to Shady Cove,OR to pick up a Bushtect railer and then returned home. Many of my friends thought I was crazy to travel cross country on a mc. My reply is that if I do not travel via two wheels now, I probably never will. Many older riders were busy raising a family and then paying for a college education for the kids. MC's were a expense that could not be justified. Now that the kids are gone we can afford to indulge some of our dreams and for many of us the American v-twin, early Hondas, or classic English twins were the bikes that stood out in our memories. I knew of the BMW opposed twin but never had the chance to ride one until the late 70's. The 500cc airhead with earles forks was a memorable machine and one of the reasons I bought a R1200CLC 2 1/2 years ago. I had a 2001 HD Sportster prior to buying the Beemer and now have a HD FSXTI Softtail for riding around town especially in hot/humid weather. The BMW and HD are very different bikes but both bring a smile to my face and provide me with the freedom, challange and enjoyment of riding. I have not had the chance to ride a modern hack but have ridden the Spyder and plan on having one or the other when I can no longer ride on two wheels.
Ride Safe :usa :usa
 
I guess IÔÇÖm in the minority. I liked it more when I started riding and the activity, it was not a sport then, was not main stream. Your dentist and doctor sure did not ride.

If bike sales are down and continue to decline, I kind of like that. If motorcycling is no longer the ÔÇ£in thingÔÇØ that works for me. I hope the next generations find things to do other than and riding and the activity will go back to the ones who always have and always will love it.
 
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