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Important information concerning depending on SPOT for rescue

Some folks feel that a PLB is a better solution.

Tons of info on PLB's here The Ultimate Personal Locator Beacon FAQ most notably is: http://www.equipped.com/faq_plb/default.asp

Q: Who will respond when I turn on my PLB?
A: That will depend upon your location.

Typically, the Coast Guard responds to marine distress, but they may also utilize appropriate local or state assets if available and closer.

Inland distress is generally the responsibility of local law enforcement, typically a county sheriff in much of the U.S. often with the assistance of local volunteer search and rescue teams. These may call upon federal or state assets if available.

The Civil Air Patrol generally responds to an aviation distress signal in most states in the U.S., and historically this has been primarily because generally extensive air search is necessary to locate the inaccurate 121.5 MHz beacon. In most cases of a 406 MHz PLB alert they will not be activated unless indications are that it comes from a downed aircraft and that local SAR resources cannot locate and take care of it in short order. That downed aircraft indication will come from providing that data in the Additional Data section, or from the Emergency Contacts listed on the registration form.

In most cases these days where the PLB alert is a remote location, the first assets to arrive will be airborne, typically a helicopter from the closest SAR resource, regardless of who operates it.
---------------------------------------------------

So regardless of whether itÔÇÖs a SPOT or a PLB, if you have to use it, you're still at the mercy of the same authorities/responders. In my situation a PLB would not have been any better, perhaps worse because would they have realized the locals were incompetent and raise it to state police?

So, as stated before - there is no magic button.

I am however thinking about satellite phone. They rent for about $60 a week. In hindsight, that would have been very helpful (I think ÔÇô I have no first hand knowledge of satellite phone)
 
I am however thinking about satellite phone. They rent for about $60 a week. In hindsight, that would have been very helpful.

A satellite phone would have been helpful in these circumstances, I agree.

But none of these would have been of any assistance if a) you were riding alone, and b) you were injured and could not send an alarm. At least in small aircraft, ELTs are triggered if the plane impacts or turns over.

Riding alone is per se a risk. Don't get me wrong: I ride alone sometimes. But I am aware that not all risks can be eliminated.
 
A satellite phone would have been helpful in these circumstances, I agree.

But none of these would have been of any assistance if a) you were riding alone, and b) you were injured and could not send an alarm. At least in small aircraft, ELTs are triggered if the plane impacts or turns over.

Yes all of the above require a massage to be sent except the SPOT if it is on tracking.
If someone is checking on you they can see your last location and how long you have been there.
There are problems with SPOT in canyons and forests.

I watched a friends tracking on CA-36 from I-5 to US-101 it is about 140 miles, very twisty and in forest. There was one location east of I-5 and the next one was on the coast several hours later.

That would have been a problem if he needed help and could not hit a button on a PLB or a SPOT. The tracking has its limitations.
 
But none of these would have been of any assistance if a) you were riding alone, and b) you were injured and could not send an alarm.

Riding alone is per se a risk. Don't get me wrong: I ride alone sometimes. But I am aware that not all risks can be eliminated.
Just to clarify. My comments refer to riding alone in uninhabited, off-road riding in treacherous areas that are inhospitable - at best - and most remote with no expected human contact. Extreme conditions. In those conditions, no one should attempt to ride alone - no one. There is a huge difference in not being able to mitigate some risks and flirting with disaster.

Personally, I ride alone almost all the time. However, I am now relegated to the highways and byways of America. I wish I could still ride off-road but at my age and with some problems I have, it's no longer possible. I used to ride off-road a lot and loved it. However, there has never been a time I rode off-road alone, even in populated areas.

BTW - Hello David. Long time no hear from. Hope all is well.
 
Steve,

As I had edited previously,

To ride a motorcycle in the first place, according to a lot of folks, is not all that bright.

We all choose to accept our own level of risks for the adventure, thrill and enjoyment it provides. I cringe at the speed at which some of you will negotiate twisties. Some skydive, some spelunk into places I would never think about going. So we all foolish in different ways.

Unless you ALWAYS ride with someone else, there remain 100 ways to become injured and stranded. One could fail to negotiate a turn and go off the side of a hill where they cant be seen. Hit a deer on a remote highway, etc. If you choose not to solo ride off-road, I understand. But you are still not immune to being injured in a remote area.

Because I would never try to scale a mountain because of the risk involved, I donÔÇÖt tell mountain climbers they are fools. To bash someone because of the risk they take has noting to do with the topic. The point of my post was to alert those that use a SPOT that it may not provide the level of protection that some us us thought. It was just information.

We do however strive to find ways to minimize the risks that we take through better training, protective gear, electronic gadgets, etc.
 
Just to clarify. My comments refer to riding alone in uninhabited, off-road riding in treacherous areas that are inhospitable - at best - and most remote with no expected human contact. Extreme conditions. In those conditions, no one should attempt to ride alone - no one. There is a huge difference in not being able to mitigate some risks and flirting with disaster.

I guess we have a different definition of "adventure". For me, it is not knowing I will be returning, but going anyway. It is the uncertainty that heightens the senses and raises awareness of the pitfalls. Failure to heed our "gut feelings" can lead to extreme distress from which we may not survive.

If we, as adventure seekers, call upon publicly funded rescue organizations to come and get us when we get ourselves into a difficult situation, then we should be prepared to have someone tell us when and where we can go.

Tom
 
I'm sorry you feel I was bashing you Bob. That is not/was not the intent.

You're an educated man and from your writing, are very articulate. I have no problem whatsoever with someone making a conscious decision regarding risky behavior to themselves.

What I have an issue with is someone doing so, running into life-threatening situations and blaming the performance of a tool and rescue services for not meeting your expectations to help you. I fully realize that mindset wasn't your intent when you posted your experience. However, as I noted, you're very articulate, you lived through the experience, you have all the details we don't have in your head. No one is able to exclude all those details you can't write down, from impacting your writing style. Unless someone reads the entire thread, they're not going to see your edits.

The bottom line, IMO, is we should make certain that we accept responsibility for our actions and disclaim up front that inevitably, it's up to us to ride smart and safely. If we choose to take a risk, it's on us to insure we limit that risk the best we can.

Once we accept that responsibility, there's nothing wrong with reporting our experience with the tools we chose. I know that's probably what you thought you were doing when you wrote of your experience. Unfortunately, it comes off as blaming the tool and the rescue folks for failing to get to you.

I apologize if my posts seem to be bashing you. That was not the intent. The intent was to make others aware that doing this alone and relying on electronics to take care of you is simply a very bad idea.
 
..we should be prepared to have someone tell us when and where we can go.

Then PM me with your comments or start a new thread.

My intent (see title) was to pass information about SPOT and SAR in remote areas.

Yes I had expected police dispatches to have basic knowledge about GPS, and that I feel, remains an issue.

It was not about if I took acceptable risks, and I had not made mention of that. It was information about SPOT and how, because of the human factors may not perform as expected. It was a shock to me and I bet to others as well.

There was a good dialog going about how to minimize some of these risks until it was hijacked. There are other, not mentioned, factors behind the scene that will give me pause about if I will do another such solo ride. But that is irrelevant, and not germane to this topic.
 
Seems like when you get past the personal stuff in the thread, there are three important takeaways for me.

1) The SPOT worked. Bob hit the 911 button and people came. Not as quick as he would have liked, but they came.

2) I need to do some more checking on the response times of PLB's vs SPOT. Everything I've seen in the past indicates with the PLB, they would have sent the State Patrol helicopter right out of the gate, but maybe not.

3) Most important, if you're solo in the middle of nowhere (hiking/biking/motorcycling), and even if you are able to send for help with your satellite device, you could still die from injuries that normally wouldn't be considered life threatening before a rescue team can get to you.

Just thinking out loud I guess. :dunno
 
In addition to what alzyck summed-up, I think the example web page that Beemer Bob provided the link for (http://ridetoeat.com/helpexample) is also a valuable item to consider and one part of a more comprehensive attempt at risk management. Please note that I am purposely avoiding any phrase that could be interpreted as "risk avoidance"!!!!

Bud -- what ability do you have to bring this whole idea up to the MOA officials? I'm not sure the whole technological enchilada needs to be discussed, but perhaps using some MOA webspace and a individualized version of the standard "help template" (link above) for those members (SPOT owners) opting-in?
 
If MOA is not able, I'm willing to pay for a domain and hosting that site, but I would need some help to set it up. I am not a web programmer. I know how to spell HTML, but other then that ...
 
In addition to what alzyck summed-up, I think the example web page that Beemer Bob provided the link for (http://ridetoeat.com/helpexample) is also a valuable item to consider and one part of a more comprehensive attempt at risk management. Please note that I am purposely avoiding any phrase that could be interpreted as "risk avoidance"!!!!

Bud -- what ability do you have to bring this whole idea up to the MOA officials? I'm not sure the whole technological enchilada needs to be discussed, but perhaps using some MOA webspace and a individualized version of the standard "help template" (link above) for those members (SPOT owners) opting-in?

I would suggest that you contact the BOD directly (board@bmwmoa.org) and reference this thread. Why contact them directly? Because they are lonely and almost never hear from the membership, according to Greg. Also, because this is not a Chartered Club issue, but an issue for individual members, it's outside of my area. However, I do have conversations about a wide range of subject while sitting around at a rally and would certainly be happy to raise the subject for all to hear.

I love technology. I was blown away by the example page showing what could be linked to a SPOT message. Very good stuff. Not sure how much server space we have, but someone does.

I see something like this as an added value benefit of BMW MOA membership.

Just as this forum allows issues such as these to be discussed by those of us who choose to sit around this virtual rally.

As an aside, I applaud the effort at communication in this thread. When we can not see each other talking, we miss a lot of non-verbal clues that make up so much of face to face communication. But good will shown by both parties goes a long way. Sometimes we just agree to disagree. Other times we find common ground. Sometimes minds are changed.

A response to the original post. It takes some courage to get on a public forum and discuss a situation such as this. So an extra big Thanks to the OP for bringing this issue to our attention.

Ride Well
Ride Often
Ride to :eat
 
Thanks Beemer Bob for posting this. I too have dealt with not-very-helpful emergency services.

Six years ago I was around the Granbury-Glen Rose area in TexSux when I saw a rider go down. Phone signal was no problem, but the 911 operator wasn't sure whose jurisdiction I was in and couldn't transfer me to a different line. "We're low-tech out here," he said, almost sounding proud of this fact. I had to scramble to find a stick and some flat & sandy soil to write down the number. Two more numbers later, I got someone who could send an ambulance. On top of all this, while dealing with the phone problem I also had to keep an eye on fellow riders who tried to do everything wrong in dealing with an undiagnosed injured person.

The fact that someone was hurt and the 911 service couldn't help without making me do most of the work (and I didn't even know exactly where I was, as I'd followed a group in an unfamiliar area) was a major point of irritation that sticks with me to this day.

I accept that life in general is dangerous, but preventable gaps in emergency services deserve a long hard look.
 
I've ridden in New Mexico so I'm not entirely surprised by the poor response. Thank you Beemer Bob for your excellent post and helpful suggestions. Friends generally monitor my SPOT (and bet on how far I'm going to travel each day.) When I had a problem in Wyoming this July one of them emailed me noting I was stopped too long in the middle of nowhere. If I hadn't replied within a few hours, I'm pretty sure he would have initiated a search.

Holly
 
Message sent to the Board of MOA

For the record, here is what I sent last night to the board@bmwmoa.org address. The subject line was:
An Opportunity to Excel - http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?t=48168

This thread on the MOA forum contains some excellent material. It is an opportunity for MOA to do something that is a cut above the rest when it comes to helping its members.

Before buying a SPOT unit I was using APRS (Automatic Position Reporting System) to let folks back home know where I was. SPOT is far better and, as the thread suggests, could be further enhanced if MOA had a way to send messages to the nearest members who have offered to help, e.g., Anonymous members. I'm suggesting a system similar to what the ST Owners group uses except that the MOA system would be triggered by SPOT help messages instead of requiring manually posting the Help message on the forum.

I'm a member of the Lonestar BMW Riders (club #252) in Dallas. I'm also its webmaster as well as webmaster of the MC Sailing Association (http://www.mcscow.org). One of the routines I developed to support the 90+ fleets around the country will pull e-mail addresses from the database if they fall within a specified distance from a fleet's home location. That location is its GPS location.

Bottom line is that a problem was defined where MOA could be pro-active and extend the Anonymous Book's capabilities into the 21st century.

Herman
 
Outstanding! I too submitted an artical this morning refering to this thread asking if they felt there was a way that MOA could assist.
 
Probably Should Not..But

Well after listening to the usual stuff concerning PLBs vs SPOT Vs Satellite Phone...

Research the PLB information, check the NOAA site...visit the ACR site and review that data...it only takes a brief time to educate yourself...

PLB = military satellites = international = best chance of someone hearing your request for rescue...remember you register with NOAA and the US Search and Rescue center receives your call...if you are down to the nitty gritty and want to survive use a PLB, it is your best chance of staying alive. SPOTs and Sat Phones are fine for their intended purposes, but understand their limitations and don't buy in because it is the "in" thing to do..for those of you old enough to remember, the SPOT on a rider reminds me of the Sierra Cups of old..more for display.

As for the "don't ride alone" bilge; please!...well, to each their own and as it has been said a "man has got to know his limits"... sadly many now want a clean and sanitized outdoor experience in which they are following all the pop culture rules...going out alone distills everything and heightens the experiences...but for some it is way beyond their comfort level...so be it...just don't decry those that enjoy solitude.

I ride my GSA 99% off road and 99.9% alone...would not have it anyother way.:brow
 
I like to ride alone. To remote places. So.
Bob, I enjoyed your Baja report, and I'm still looking for your New Mexico breakdown report.
I had two trips, and one breakdown in Baja this year. But no problems. What helped me was a forum, not this one, and the ability to speak Spanish.
I walked across the border with no problem.
I got a tow, on a trailer, and they drove pathetically slow, and stopped 5 or 6 times to assure the bike was ok.
So, I think any system is only as good as the people in it, and as good as they are able to do at the time.
The stories. And one Spot story that I enjoyed.
dc
http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=765042&page=1
http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?t=59860
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=715433&highlight=spot
 
From About.com Geography,

Here is how to convert degree, minutes, seconds to decimal:

The whole units of degrees will remain the same (i.e. in 121.135?? longitude, start with 121??).
Multiply the decimal by 60 (i.e. .135 * 60 = 8.1).
The whole number becomes the minutes (8').
Take the remaining decimal and multiply by 60. (i.e. .1 * 60 = 6).
The resulting number becomes the seconds (6"). Seconds can remain as a decimal.
Take your three sets of numbers and put them together, using the symbols for degrees (??), minutes (ÔÇÿ), and seconds (") (i.e. 121??8'6" longitude)

Handy to know if your GPS offers only the DMS format and you need decimal.
 
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