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Your speed in the twisties
- Thread starter BCKRider
- Start date
KenDittrick
Rocky Bow BMW Riders #197
So THAT'S why I used the whole road last year! I really miss-judged it - fortunately my 'safety margin' was just enough! It is pretty apparent that generally roads in a given area/state/province have similar rating for curves but a safety margin is needed when a curve is incorrectly assessed (by the engineer who built it or the rider approaching it).
Being a Canuck; an added reason to take corners in the USA with a grain of salt is I find that the mental energy used by constantly calculating the mph to km/hr AND looking at the curve, road entry/exit etc. etc. is actually quite high and sometimes wish BMW would have an on-the-fly method of switching from metric to standard to avoid all the mental gymnastics.
Speedometer useless for me
When I used to use my speedometer in cornering, I found some roads where doubling the advisory speed could be fairly easily done. There were others where the same practice would put you in the ravine.
At some point I seem to have decided that the speedometer, and gauging and guessing the conservatism of the advisory signmakers, were a useless distraction from reading the road. Where I live, the roads have lots of potential hazards:
Sand from snow abatement, never swept up.
Gravel fallen from trucks during construction season.
Fresh sloppy construction
Large critters; deer, cattle, mustangs (the 4 legged kind)
Washed off mud/dirt from thundershowers.
Idiots in cages, of course
Squirrely crotch rocket pilots who only ride 6 months of the year.
Black ice in shady corners early spring and late fall - especially early or late in the day.
Cracks and buckling from repeated freeze/thaw cycles.
Spotty drenched sections from scattered heavy thundershowers.
Gusty crosswinds.
Driveways driveways driveways.
I don't consider the condition of a road where I am at now, is any predictor of how it will be 3 miles down the line. I focus entirely on what I can see ahead, and keeping the engine in a gear appropriate for my roadspeed, visibility, and the rate of climb/descent. I do like to ride smoothly, with minimal brake use. The roads here are very far removed from track conditions. What is my speed going into a corner? Couldn't tell you.
I suppose I ride elementally; bike sound and vibration; tire and suspension feedback; intently observing road; noting temperature, wind, and sunlight conditions; my own mood, etc. Where I can see, and feel, ahead, I have some extra fun. Where I cannot, I dial it back, knowing that doing so will let me continue to ride and have fun for a very long time.
When I used to use my speedometer in cornering, I found some roads where doubling the advisory speed could be fairly easily done. There were others where the same practice would put you in the ravine.
At some point I seem to have decided that the speedometer, and gauging and guessing the conservatism of the advisory signmakers, were a useless distraction from reading the road. Where I live, the roads have lots of potential hazards:
Sand from snow abatement, never swept up.
Gravel fallen from trucks during construction season.
Fresh sloppy construction
Large critters; deer, cattle, mustangs (the 4 legged kind)
Washed off mud/dirt from thundershowers.
Idiots in cages, of course
Squirrely crotch rocket pilots who only ride 6 months of the year.
Black ice in shady corners early spring and late fall - especially early or late in the day.
Cracks and buckling from repeated freeze/thaw cycles.
Spotty drenched sections from scattered heavy thundershowers.
Gusty crosswinds.
Driveways driveways driveways.
I don't consider the condition of a road where I am at now, is any predictor of how it will be 3 miles down the line. I focus entirely on what I can see ahead, and keeping the engine in a gear appropriate for my roadspeed, visibility, and the rate of climb/descent. I do like to ride smoothly, with minimal brake use. The roads here are very far removed from track conditions. What is my speed going into a corner? Couldn't tell you.
I suppose I ride elementally; bike sound and vibration; tire and suspension feedback; intently observing road; noting temperature, wind, and sunlight conditions; my own mood, etc. Where I can see, and feel, ahead, I have some extra fun. Where I cannot, I dial it back, knowing that doing so will let me continue to ride and have fun for a very long time.
grafikfeat
New member
The only time I look down at my speedo is when I see a cop following me or 'gunning' me from the side of the road.
Useless information when ya get down to it.
Me knowing how fast I'm going won't allow me to take or lose a corner.
Experience will.
About Hwy 6 near Vernon B.C.
What I SHOULD have said is that the road east of Cherryville to the Needles ferry contains the curves with a a couple deceptively marked. The road from the Needles ferry to Nakusp can indeed be ridden very fast with almost no concern for speed enforcement - except that imposed by your concern for deer and the occasional bear. In summer 2008, mid-day, a friend riding behind me there with his wife on pillion got to test his ABS on dry pavement when a deer darted out of the bushes. No accident.
Both the west and east Kootenays of British Columbia have many great motorcycling roads and some great scenery. My advice is to enjoy them - but when selecting your speed, realize that deer can always appear. (And yes, this is not news and probably in the wrong thread.)
What I SHOULD have said is that the road east of Cherryville to the Needles ferry contains the curves with a a couple deceptively marked. The road from the Needles ferry to Nakusp can indeed be ridden very fast with almost no concern for speed enforcement - except that imposed by your concern for deer and the occasional bear. In summer 2008, mid-day, a friend riding behind me there with his wife on pillion got to test his ABS on dry pavement when a deer darted out of the bushes. No accident.
Both the west and east Kootenays of British Columbia have many great motorcycling roads and some great scenery. My advice is to enjoy them - but when selecting your speed, realize that deer can always appear. (And yes, this is not news and probably in the wrong thread.)
A "Riding Skills" Forum
My thanks to "TexanRT" for his post #67. Clearly he had the same thought pmdave did (see #45) which I echoed - only he had it a year ago! Click on the links TexanRT so thoughtfully provided in #67 and you will find more ideas about the topic I recently raised.
Below is a quote dated Jan. 21, 2009 from "username." It certainly seems to infer that the poster is a moderator.
"You can talk about safety right now. Start a thread that you want to see discussion on. You can do this in the "Campfire." We watch the forums closely, and prefer to be demand driven when creating new subforums. This keeps the clutter and scrolling on the front page to a minimum and improves the user interface. If we see a lot of actual discussion on safety issues (as opposed to people talking about wanting to talk about it), the moderation team will determine how and when to carve out a specific home for those discussions.
Go for it!"
My suggestion for the moderators is that few users go back than more than two months. That's why I missed all this stuff started by TexanRT a year ago. I'm sure it is still there but VERY few people will ever see it!
I hope the moderators will give this considerable thought. Is there a way of not only creating a new forum heading but also resurrecting some of the threads buried deep in "Campfire" which are in no way dated, as say discussions about Tiger Woods are certain to be?
I think all of us would really appreciate a response from the moderators. If we are missing something, could you please let us know?
My thanks to "TexanRT" for his post #67. Clearly he had the same thought pmdave did (see #45) which I echoed - only he had it a year ago! Click on the links TexanRT so thoughtfully provided in #67 and you will find more ideas about the topic I recently raised.
Below is a quote dated Jan. 21, 2009 from "username." It certainly seems to infer that the poster is a moderator.
"You can talk about safety right now. Start a thread that you want to see discussion on. You can do this in the "Campfire." We watch the forums closely, and prefer to be demand driven when creating new subforums. This keeps the clutter and scrolling on the front page to a minimum and improves the user interface. If we see a lot of actual discussion on safety issues (as opposed to people talking about wanting to talk about it), the moderation team will determine how and when to carve out a specific home for those discussions.
Go for it!"
My suggestion for the moderators is that few users go back than more than two months. That's why I missed all this stuff started by TexanRT a year ago. I'm sure it is still there but VERY few people will ever see it!
I hope the moderators will give this considerable thought. Is there a way of not only creating a new forum heading but also resurrecting some of the threads buried deep in "Campfire" which are in no way dated, as say discussions about Tiger Woods are certain to be?
I think all of us would really appreciate a response from the moderators. If we are missing something, could you please let us know?
roborider
God? What god?
Somewhere I read an article that a high percentage of riders look at there speedo each time they shift, thus needlessly take their eyes off the road for no reason. I monitored myself and found I did this sometimes on downshifts, but not often. Anyway, a bit off topic but an interesting bad habit to check yourself on and correct.
J
JAMESDUNN
Guest
I was a ski racer and it involves many of the same physics as motorcycle riding or racing. When I raced I raced, when I practiced I focused on skills. The practice made me a capable racer. Don't recall reading too many books ; I did have quite a lot of coaching and became a coach and teacher myself. The experience I had from practice was how I was able to "turn it on" when race day arrived.
grafikfeat
New member
Yes. I agree.
Theory/Practice applied equals experience.
I constantly practice my braking... Especially on the side car rig.
What I'm implying is while reading a book on safety is good, it is but one source of info.
Applying what you have read is essential.
I use Mr. Hough's sidecar book w/ lesson plans to practice certain maneuvers.When I bought this hack I never even sat on a sidecar rig.
I took the safety course here in Seattle.
Best thing I ever did to prepare myself for the road(s) ahead.
Pun intended.
E
E_Page
Guest
The road to my house is just as you describe, except that there are a few potholes (I know just where they are), and I can regularly expect hazards such as loose gravel, fallen branches, or any of a wide variety of wildlife.
When I first started riding this road, I would often check my speedometer out of curiosity, but found that doing so tended to distract me from keeping a good track and optimal speed through the turns. I very rarely look at the speedometer in the curves anymore. I just take them by feel.
I've also found that I can't plan to gauge my speed according to the yellow advisory signs (Curve Ahead - 25 MPH) because, at least on roads that were built prior to design speed standards, the folks that they send out to post them seem to have widely varying ideas of what is a safe speed. I've been through curves that were posted 15, and I could safely take them at 45 in my pickup, and I've been through others posted 35 that I wouldn't want to do more than 20 in or on any vehicle.
So, in short, I couldn't even give you a reliable guideline. It's all about finding the speed you're comfortable with. Start conservatively. It's easier and safer to adjust your spped up to a comfortable level than it is to adjust down from a speed that you can't control.
redclfco
New member
To he$l with the squirrels
I got to thinking about Mr. Dunn's post in this thread, comparing skiing and riding a bike in the twisties being the same; comparing the two does bring out some specifics that once visualized, could assist someone learning to carve twisties on asphalt.
Skiers, like bikers come in unlimited varieties, but when it comes to coming down a narrow trail, where big sweepers are not possible, two ways to do it;
Very cautious, sliding the rear of the ski around each turn, allowing the inertia of the hill to slow you every turn. After each turn is executed, the ski tips end up sideways, and almost pointing uphill! This type of beginner sking is unstable, unpredictable due to the w-i-d-e turn causing an about face on each turn.
The experienced skier will follow the proper, faster and infinitely more fun way to ski the twisties; keep the tips pointed down the slope, and tilt the edge of the ski horizontally into the hill on each turn, like your skis are a sharp knife, cutting your turn with the precision of a surgeon into the flesh. The faster and steeper the hill, the deeper you stick the blade in the snow, allowing you to control a series of small turns, which the inertia pushes you into each turn. Put aside the poles for a minute, because I don't know how they would factor into this comparison, and we all knows the importance of a pole plant. right?
I followed a guy one time on what I assume was a new ride (er) and watched him turn away from the fall line of the road on each turn, continually set a line to turn (carve) abort, go straight increase speed by inertia, tap the brakes and find another line, again turning his whole body (and bike) sideways to the fall line; it was obvious he was struggling to keep this Harley looking Yamaha out of trouble at that speed, so I backed off to give him the ability to slow down, hope he did.
Each turn he made was not looking into the fall, was not anticipating the next turn where he wanted to go, checking his heavy hand on the throttle with his brakes (danger here, man) and appeared to be looking away from the turn he was executing.
He very well may have been watching the speed versus feeling the inertia+ speed, and instinctively knowing how much throttle produced a controllable fall (inertia).His bike spent more time sideways in the road versus pointing the nose like the ski tips) down the road where he wanted to go.
The fun comes in finding the very limit of controllable speed, coming right up to that limit, then find ways to involve a third dimension/ the lean where the speed can be increased even further!
That's what separates the men from the boys, IMHO, that is. And I announce here that there are many, many who have a better handle on this "Lean" dimension in carving up the twisties; I'm certainly not afraid of the twisties being born a raised in the foothills of Colorado, but I do know and respect my limits, and more importantly, the limit of the road...dirt, branches, squirrel guts, pot holes keep me from truly even approaching "the edge" of speed by increasing the lean past a certain point. I am not risking that edge as I once did many years ago. No speedo needed, just years of letting my brain go on auto pilot and make the decision before I enter each turn as to how much inertia I throttle up into each turn.
I know many feel that to ride a fine engineered machine like a BMW and not seek that limit/that edge is sacrilegious to BMW, but to me? I've tumbled off my mount a time or two in my lifetime by pushig the limits, and on each turn, have made a choice to ride with the boys, with a degree of safety. I am one of the boys. Let the Men fly by; to hell with the squirrels!
I got to thinking about Mr. Dunn's post in this thread, comparing skiing and riding a bike in the twisties being the same; comparing the two does bring out some specifics that once visualized, could assist someone learning to carve twisties on asphalt.
Skiers, like bikers come in unlimited varieties, but when it comes to coming down a narrow trail, where big sweepers are not possible, two ways to do it;
Very cautious, sliding the rear of the ski around each turn, allowing the inertia of the hill to slow you every turn. After each turn is executed, the ski tips end up sideways, and almost pointing uphill! This type of beginner sking is unstable, unpredictable due to the w-i-d-e turn causing an about face on each turn.
The experienced skier will follow the proper, faster and infinitely more fun way to ski the twisties; keep the tips pointed down the slope, and tilt the edge of the ski horizontally into the hill on each turn, like your skis are a sharp knife, cutting your turn with the precision of a surgeon into the flesh. The faster and steeper the hill, the deeper you stick the blade in the snow, allowing you to control a series of small turns, which the inertia pushes you into each turn. Put aside the poles for a minute, because I don't know how they would factor into this comparison, and we all knows the importance of a pole plant. right?
I followed a guy one time on what I assume was a new ride (er) and watched him turn away from the fall line of the road on each turn, continually set a line to turn (carve) abort, go straight increase speed by inertia, tap the brakes and find another line, again turning his whole body (and bike) sideways to the fall line; it was obvious he was struggling to keep this Harley looking Yamaha out of trouble at that speed, so I backed off to give him the ability to slow down, hope he did.
Each turn he made was not looking into the fall, was not anticipating the next turn where he wanted to go, checking his heavy hand on the throttle with his brakes (danger here, man) and appeared to be looking away from the turn he was executing.
He very well may have been watching the speed versus feeling the inertia+ speed, and instinctively knowing how much throttle produced a controllable fall (inertia).His bike spent more time sideways in the road versus pointing the nose like the ski tips) down the road where he wanted to go.
The fun comes in finding the very limit of controllable speed, coming right up to that limit, then find ways to involve a third dimension/ the lean where the speed can be increased even further!
That's what separates the men from the boys, IMHO, that is. And I announce here that there are many, many who have a better handle on this "Lean" dimension in carving up the twisties; I'm certainly not afraid of the twisties being born a raised in the foothills of Colorado, but I do know and respect my limits, and more importantly, the limit of the road...dirt, branches, squirrel guts, pot holes keep me from truly even approaching "the edge" of speed by increasing the lean past a certain point. I am not risking that edge as I once did many years ago. No speedo needed, just years of letting my brain go on auto pilot and make the decision before I enter each turn as to how much inertia I throttle up into each turn.
I know many feel that to ride a fine engineered machine like a BMW and not seek that limit/that edge is sacrilegious to BMW, but to me? I've tumbled off my mount a time or two in my lifetime by pushig the limits, and on each turn, have made a choice to ride with the boys, with a degree of safety. I am one of the boys. Let the Men fly by; to hell with the squirrels!
A
angysdad
Guest
I use my Canada/USA magical conversion kit!
If the curve sign suggests 50km/h, I figure I'm good for 50mph.
It seems to work for me.
If the curve sign suggests 50km/h, I figure I'm good for 50mph.
It seems to work for me.
Really? And please check post #89
You seem to have missed posts by myself and others. In many, maybe most, corners 50 mph (80 kmp) is indeed safe. BUT NOT ALL. There are bad curve signs where that speed will put you in the ditch if not off a cliff or else in the oncoming lane, if it is a right curve.
I believe it is exactly this sort of response which moderators fear when considering setting up a new "riding safely" forum. I think it is exactly the sort of response I'm giving you that should allay their fears that mis-information will not go long unchallenged.
Please do not take this as a personal attack. Come back to Canada on your bike and enjoy our great country. But realize that those suggested speeds in curves, as translated to safe bike speed, can vary on the same road.
You seem to have missed posts by myself and others. In many, maybe most, corners 50 mph (80 kmp) is indeed safe. BUT NOT ALL. There are bad curve signs where that speed will put you in the ditch if not off a cliff or else in the oncoming lane, if it is a right curve.
I believe it is exactly this sort of response which moderators fear when considering setting up a new "riding safely" forum. I think it is exactly the sort of response I'm giving you that should allay their fears that mis-information will not go long unchallenged.
Please do not take this as a personal attack. Come back to Canada on your bike and enjoy our great country. But realize that those suggested speeds in curves, as translated to safe bike speed, can vary on the same road.
grafikfeat
New member
Ever see anyone texting while skiing?
rad
Retired from riding
I tend to not let a road sign influence me regarding speed selection unless the sign is something out of the ordinary, like that cute little orange diamond shaped one on a temporary road side barricade that states "loose gravel"
The speed I carry into a curve depends on a lot of things, most importantly for me, how "on" I am that day, or at that part of the day. There are times where I'm fluid and fast and times I'm out of sync with the bike and I back off. There is only a couple MPH difference between those two experiences, but that is all it takes to move out of your comfort zone.
The speed I carry into a curve depends on a lot of things, most importantly for me, how "on" I am that day, or at that part of the day. There are times where I'm fluid and fast and times I'm out of sync with the bike and I back off. There is only a couple MPH difference between those two experiences, but that is all it takes to move out of your comfort zone.
grafikfeat
New member
Then there are times I turn around and ride elsewhere.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jim_popper/3733798794/" title="Riding on the Moon. by GrafikFeat, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2116/3733798794_84ea0d3c62.jpg" width="500" height="335" alt="Riding on the Moon." /></a>
On the two wheeler anyway...
rad
Retired from riding
No kidding
One of the most imporaant lessons I learned ocean kayaking, I apply to all my activities, and tell my MSF students, is knowing when to "stay on the beach" .
I have turned around, or stopped, many a time, both on and off road, due to conditions that I felt were beyond me at that moment.
Perhaps the most important lesson in all of this is that road signs aren't very reliable at telling you how to ride. If you want to survive the ride, you must maintain your awareness of what the road and other users are doing, and make appropriate adjustments.
I'll have to dig out that photo of a curve sign, where the upper bolt on the sign either dropped off, or was "encouraged" to drop off, and the sign swiveled down so it is pointing in the opposite direction.
pmdave
I'll have to dig out that photo of a curve sign, where the upper bolt on the sign either dropped off, or was "encouraged" to drop off, and the sign swiveled down so it is pointing in the opposite direction.
pmdave
grafikfeat
New member
Relying on anything other than yourself for safety is just plain silly.
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