Spline Drive on K series

ddervin said:

Don-

Thanks for the reply. I'll post here instead of email you directly for the benefit of others.

My bike has 81,900+ miles on it, and I have kept meticulous records on it for the past 17 years that I have owned it. I'm the second owner, but it only had 2718 miles on it when I bought it as a bank repo in 1987.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "FYK", but I have religiously had the clutch spline lubed every 10,000 miles. Since I have lately started to get confused by dealers, I haven' t had the clutch spline lubed since about 13,000 miles ago by a dealer in southern Ohio I trust. My confusion from varying dealers about the maintenance schedule for this service is why I am looking for "definitive" answers about this.

However, I am not sure about if the folks ever did the rear drive splines at the same time, because they never asked me if I wanted it done, and I never asked them to do it because I always thought it was the clutch spline that was the big thing to do- I never new about the drive splines!

Yikes!

However, four years and about 9000 miles ago ( I don't ride it all the time anymore, I love it so much I'm trying more to "preserve" it throughout my lifetime!) the bearings in my final drive blew (don't know the cause of that because I ALWAYS replace the gear oil in it at the start of every "season" every year), and when I personally replaced the final drive, I greased that rear drive spline, because my basic knowledge of mechanical stuff told me it was "the thing to do". I remember clearly it already had what I thought was a "decent" amount of grease on it, but I cleaned both the spline and the "female", part of the new final drive, and greased them both. I used fresh "regular" grease I had lying around, which is definately not Honda Moly60.

I will immediately pull the final drive, find some Honda Moly60, and clean and grease everything again.
-------------

To clarify, I'd like to reiterate what you are telling me for you to verify I have this right.

1. Find and buy HondaMoly60 (probably at a Honda dealer- duh...), and pull the final drive and clean and grease the rear drive spline. You recommend this should be done every 10,000 miles.

Click to expand...

Correct.

2. Alternatively, the shaft could be pryed out in it's entirety, both spline ends cleaned and greased with Honda Moly60, and put back in by rotating and aligning, and whacking it back in with a leather (or rubber?) mallet. Again, you recommend this entire service is to be done every 10,000 miles (and sounds easy enough for me to do).

Click to expand...

Correct again - although doing the front really isn't necessary, do it so you know it's done. Then forgettaboutit.

3. You recommend the clutch spline be lubed every 20,000 to 25,000 miles with Honda Moly60. This I REALLY, REALLY WISH I could do myself, but I just don't have the setup to hold the bike up. I HATE having to pay around $375.00 to get it done, and would MUCH rather do it myself so I KNOW it's done right (paranoid), but I think it's out of my personal mechanical and tool ability.

Click to expand...

Correct again. Since we don't know what grease the dealer used - I'd suggest getting it done. Most dealers are still using up their stock of BMW#10 grease - which IMHO (and that of a lot of other people) was a mistake on the part of BMW (there is a lot more to the story.. but I won't bring it here..)

----------------
I have one more question;

There is a "weep" hole on the bottom of the tranny that gets about 6 or 8 drops of oil out of it now on every ride.

1. Is this a "main seal" between the trans and engine that is letting loose?

Click to expand...

It's usually the rubber O ring under the nut on the clutch basket. Usually when that is replaced - since you're almost there - people replace the main engine seal. Might add $100 to the bill for the dealer to do it... it doesn't take all that long when it's apart.

2. Could it be replaced during a clutch spline lube since the trans would be out? I realize the clutch would have to be disassembled, but hey, having it torn down that far already might help.

Click to expand...

Yes - see above

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

DSD

Click to expand...

All points duly noted.

Thanks! Again!

Dale

In the interest of servicing the drive splines, I've heard that pulling the shaft to get to the inner drive spline and the subsequent replacement of the shaft by pounding it back in to get the circlip to seat may not be the proper thing to do. My understanding now is that BMW recommends a replacement circlip as part of any removal procedure, which means the swingarm needs to be dismantled to get to it.

I am really trying to work on this bike using the best and most highly recommended methods possible.

Would someone like to comment on this procedure?

Thanks-

Dale Dervin

ddervin said:

In the interest of servicing the drive splines, I've heard that pulling the shaft to get to the inner drive spline and the subsequent replacement of the shaft by pounding it back in to get the circlip to seat may not be the proper thing to do. My understanding now is that BMW recommends a replacement circlip as part of any removal procedure, which means the swingarm needs to be dismantled to get to it.

I am really trying to work on this bike using the best and most highly recommended methods possible.

Would someone like to comment on this procedure?

Thanks-

Dale Dervin

Click to expand...

I have NEVER heard of this recommendation and it is in no manual that I have (and I have them all).

Where exactly did you get this recommendation?

I can see no reason why reusing the wire ring that holds the shaft in place would be ANY different than replacing it.. unless you're a hamfisted klutz who boogers (tech-term) up the ring trying to reseat the driveshaft.

My suggestion to you once more would be IGNORE the inner driveshaft splines. I have never heard of them causing anyone any problems.

And I think that's my last reply on the subject. By now you should have some idea of what has to be done and if you're capable of doing it. I'd suggest reading the IBMWR K-tech-FAQ's and your manuals.

Yikes!

Don-

I'm just trying to get all the information that I can. My entire reason for posting to this forum is because I was, and continue to get, conflicting information. I appreciate the information you relayed to me and the forum.

As part of performing due diligence in researching this subject, one I haven't ever personally performed, I used not only this forum, but others as well. Frankly, it was refreshing to find that all the sources I polled agreed on all points, with the exception of the reinstallation of the shaft. I was told the following by someone I have no reason to suspect has less experience than anyone else on the subject, and all certainly have more than me;

---------------
Quote:

"Regarding the circlip question.....There were some variations in shaft design in the K models over the years. Your model may or may not have the locking circlip at the transmission end of the drive shaft. Yours should but may not. The later ones definately did. What you can do, is merely pull the rear drive first. Then try yanking on the drive shaft. If it comes out easily then there is no circlip. And when you do get it out, look in the splined area of the front of the shaft and see if there is a circlip groove.

If it offers a fight coming out, don't force it. Instead you must first pull the swing arm completely off. Then up at the front of the shaft hidden in the splined section is an internal circlip that locks the trans shaft to the spline on the drive shaft. You can then with the housing off, pry your way into the circlip area and undo its lock, then slide the shaft off the tranny. The shop manual insists on a new circlip upon refitting but you might be able to get by with the original if you reshape it to lock into the splined area before it all goes together.

Upon refitting, the reverse is the procedure. Put paste on the trans shaft spline. Then put the swing arm back on. Then coat the spline on the drive shaft and slide the shaft into the housing and onto the tranny shaft. Push it until you hear and feel the CLICK of the snap ring locking itself into the groove. The rest of the work is at the rear.

You really should have a BMW shop manual as there are a lot of other considerations to manage. The aftermarket manuals and piecemeal advice will get you into a shithouse full of trouble. Toss all the aftermarket stuff. Most of it is far too generic and broad coverage, with very misleading procedures. You need the guidance for your particular vintage. And even then the BMW shop manuals may vary somewhat. You have to use good judgement along with hopefully correct shop procedures.
"
End Quote
----------------------

Again Don, as an amatuer, I am looking for the CORRECT procedures and as much detailed information I can find. I can't afford to be stuck in my puny garage with a driveshaft on the floor. Without owning a shop manual myself, and without personal experience, I turn to experienced people like yourself, as well as others, in any forum I can find. BMWMOA provides this forum for exchange of this information, and I am very appreciative in its availability.

All opinions are very appreciated, and no obligation from anyone is implied.


Regards-

DSD

ddervin said:

Yikes!

Don-

I'm just trying to get all the information that I can. My entire reason for posting to this forum is because I was, and continue to get, conflicting information. I appreciate the information you relayed to me and the forum.

Click to expand...

Big snippage

You really should have a BMW shop manual as there are a lot of other considerations to manage. The aftermarket manuals and piecemeal advice will get you into a shithouse full of trouble. Toss all the aftermarket stuff. Most of it is far too generic and broad coverage, with very misleading procedures. You need the guidance for your particular vintage. And even then the BMW shop manuals may vary somewhat. You have to use good judgement along with hopefully correct shop procedures.
"
End Quote
----------------------

Again Don, as an amatuer, I am looking for the CORRECT procedures and as much detailed information I can find. I can't afford to be stuck in my puny garage with a driveshaft on the floor. Without owning a shop manual myself, and without personal experience, I turn to experienced people like yourself, as well as others, in any forum I can find. BMWMOA provides this forum for exchange of this information, and I am very appreciative in its availability.

All opinions are very appreciated, and no obligation from anyone is implied.

Regards-

DSD

Click to expand...

Yes - but the other reply made a point I was trying to - if you don't have a manual - and preferrably ALL the manuals available for the K 2 valve series - you are going to find yourself lost.

Compared to the expense of having one clutch spline lube done by a dealer - the manuals are cheap.

As the other poster noted - the aftermarket manuals aren't always accurate (there are some errors in each of them that I've seen) - but I'll disgree a bit here.. the factory manual is written for a trained skilled mechanic who has probably also taken the BMW training on the bike in question. It is NOT written for a home mechanic. The aftermarket manuals are - and are much better illustrated than the factory manual, and in some cases give alternate tools to the factory tools, and alternate techniques.

What you should do is plan the project with the aftermarket manuals, then check them against the factory manual for any errors such as torque values.

Using this forum - which is done entirely by volunteers - as a primary source of information isn't a good idea. You don't know me from Adam, and I could be (and have been accused of being) a complete bozo who doesn't know a wrench from a screwdriver.

The other thing that worries me is you're seeking confirmation of things that are covered in the IBMWR K-tech FAQ's (some of which I wrote), and have been covered here in this same thread prior to your message. You are getting conflicting answers which obviously are confusing you, so you're asking to do the job by a concensus. The detail level of your questions are wonderful, but not questions I would expect of someone familiar with work on this level... so not slamming you - Do you feel confident in tackling this job?

If not - then a dealer or a friend who has done it already is what you should be seeking.

BTW - if I remember correctly - this is an '85 K bike you're talking about? The problem the other poster mentioned with manual removal of a circlip doesn't exist on an '85 K.. I am intimately familar with that year and had the transmission out numerous times and the driveshaft off several times. It's not a problem..
he may be referring to paralever bikes - I've never seen or heard of that problem or design on monolever bikes.

And if you remember my other advice - you can safely IGNORE the inner driveshaft spline. It isn't going to wear, it doesn't give trouble, and it's extra work for no gain. The problem spline on the '85 K bike is the rear driveshaft to rear-drive spline (and to a lesser extent - the clutch splines). Those are the ones I'd direct my attention to.

Don speaketh the truth.

You can trust Don. I've done a few Kbike spline lubes using the instructions he put together over on the IBMWR site.

K-Model Periodic Maintenance

I bought a 1991 K100RS in February. Great bike, well cared for by previous owner(s). Compared to what I was riding, it handles great and has plenty of power.

After a couple of months enjoying it and riding it, I finally read the "Rider's Manual" and "Service History". On page 23, under Periodic Maintenance, K-Models, it states, " Clutch splines/Input shaft - This vital area must be lubricated once a year. If vehicle is used in coastal areas or other high humidity areas this service must be performed bi-annually."

I thought I would pass that on....

Thanks Robert. I gues maybe I should have looked in mine too! I have mine aqll sealed up in plastic and boxed away. out of sight, out of mind...

DSD

ddervin said:

Thanks Robert. I gues maybe I should have looked in mine too! I have mine aqll sealed up in plastic and boxed away. out of sight, out of mind...

DSD

Click to expand...

That recommendation was a reaction to some early spline failures on K bikes - in particular the K75's.. (for a reason that is a quite long story - but lubing them just put off failure of the splines for a while). If you look at the earlier owners manuals - there is no recommendation for lubing the clutch splines.

IF you use the Honda Moly60 - I would suggest (not recommend) that you do one spline lube - then if you're REALLY worried, do another one in 10,000 miles. I suspect you'll find the lube is still there doing it's job. Then do another one in another 20,000 miles.. and bet you'll see the same thing. I've lengthened my interval to 30k miles now. And bet I'll find the lube just fine at +30k.

IF you use the BMW #10 - then I'd say to do it at LEAST once a year.

Dunno on the new stuff they're selling. I suspect it might be quite good, but don't have any personal experience with it.

Best,

I'm now a proud owner of a mini-tube of Honda Moly60!

I did the rear drive spline, but skipped pulling the shaft- your recommendation, plus I'm a mech-wuss! Also changed the brake fluids, the rear drive and trans oil, and the fork oil. First time I've done my fork oil by myself for awhile- I'd like to get my hands on the HACKS that I PAID that used channel locks and chewed up the top plug area. That was an unpleasant discovery yesterday. I spent a whole $13 on a 7/8 wrench that those @#$%% should have used.

Took digi pics of the rear splines after total cleanup. The flash didn't really light the whole spline up, but they give a pretty good depiction of what is going on in there. I think the splines look pretty good. There is one little nick on one of the splines inside the shaft, but frankly, after all the talk, I thought it would be worse.

Went for a cruise last night, and I'm a little frought with the downshifting- the clutch splines definately need lubed. It's been 13k miles and 5 years since it's been done (told you I haven't ridden much). I can finesse the down shifts, which I suppose I should be doing anyway, but 2nd gear is a pretty bad complainer and it didn't used to be.... At least I am progressing with the service.

I've had an offer for workspace and assistance with the clutch spline, and main seal/o-ring change while I have it that far apart, and am going to work on that ASAP... I'm wondering if I should invest in a new clutch disk while I have it apart- why not?

DSD

ddervin said:

I'm now a proud owner of a mini-tube of Honda Moly60!

Click to expand...

Cool!

I did the rear drive spline, but skipped pulling the shaft- your recommendation, plus I'm a mech-wuss! Also changed the brake fluids, the rear drive and trans oil, and the fork oil. First time I've done my fork oil by myself for awhile- I'd like to get my hands on the HACKS that I PAID that used channel locks and chewed up the top plug area. That was an unpleasant discovery yesterday. I spent a whole $13 on a 7/8 wrench that those @#$%% should have used.

Took digi pics of the rear splines after total cleanup. The flash didn't really light the whole spline up, but they give a pretty good depiction of what is going on in there. I think the splines look pretty good. There is one little nick on one of the splines inside the shaft, but frankly, after all the talk, I thought it would be worse.

Click to expand...

If you'd like to email me the photos - see my sig - I can take a look at the splines perhaps. It can be a bit tricky "reading" them until you really know what to look for..

Went for a cruise last night, and I'm a little frought with the downshifting- the clutch splines definately need lubed. It's been 13k miles and 5 years since it's been done (told you I haven't ridden much). I can finesse the down shifts, which I suppose I should be doing anyway, but 2nd gear is a pretty bad complainer and it didn't used to be.... At least I am progressing with the service.

I've had an offer for workspace and assistance with the clutch spline, and main seal/o-ring change while I have it that far apart, and am going to work on that ASAP... I'm wondering if I should invest in a new clutch disk while I have it apart- why not?
DSD

Click to expand...

Good that you have an offer of help - is it someone who has BTDT?

As far as a new clutch disk - IMHO - waste of money. Never known anyone to actually wear one out on a K bike. In all likelyhood it will LOOK worn - (the rivet heads are very close to the disk surface) - but measurement will show it's fine for lots more miles. Your call - but it isn't something I'd just do for the sake of doing it.

One hint - before taking anything apart in the clutch - mark each piece in relation to the other pieces (not the diaphram spring or the disk..) the basket, pressure plate and cover with a centerpunch. The factory markings are probably VERY faint by now, and I can promise you - they'll disappear by the time you're done cleaning things off. Centerpunched marks will never disappear.

Am I correct in guessing that you have read the IBMWR tech-FAQ's on spline lubes? Lots of good hints there that will make the job go faster and easier.

Oh - 2nd hint - you'll have to get the clutch basket off to replace the seal, and the big nut on it has to come off anyway even just to replace the O ring. To lock the clutch basket when loosening the nut or tightening it- most manuals show a special tool. My special tool was a hammer handle stuck through one of the holes in the back of the basket against one of the cast webs in the intermediate housing.

Best,

k splines

I have used the services of Bruno's Machine Shop in Kitchener Ontario. He rebuilt the final drive, replace the seals in the final drive, rebuilt the female end of the drive shaft with new universal joints for $475.00 Canadian. I have logged over 10,000 km. since the rebuild and everything is great. I highly recommed this shop.

Alright folks, new K (well the motorcycle and I are both old) bike owner, 88 K75C actually, with a question...

Any reason not to use aerosol brake/part cleaner for spline shaft cleaning prior to the moly-60 application?

Thanks,
tinman

Manuals

deilenberger said:

Yes - but the other reply made a point I was trying to - if you don't have a manual - and preferrably ALL the manuals available for the K 2 valve series - you are going to find yourself lost.

Compared to the expense of having one clutch spline lube done by a dealer - the manuals are cheap.

As the other poster noted - the aftermarket manuals aren't always accurate (there are some errors in each of them that I've seen) - but I'll disgree a bit here.. the factory manual is written for a trained skilled mechanic who has probably also taken the BMW training on the bike in question. It is NOT written for a home mechanic. The aftermarket manuals are - and are much better illustrated than the factory manual, and in some cases give alternate tools to the factory tools, and alternate techniques.

What you should do is plan the project with the aftermarket manuals, then check them against the factory manual for any errors such as torque values.

.

Click to expand...

Don
thanks for the heads-up on the Hayes & Clymer manual. I have spent a lot of time this winter reading through them and yes this did seem kind of vague. Guess it off to the dealer to see when and if they can still get manuals for the FYK.

Tim Inman said:

Alright folks, new K (well the motorcycle and I are both old) bike owner, 88 K75C actually, with a question...

Any reason not to use aerosol brake/part cleaner for spline shaft cleaning prior to the moly-60 application?

Thanks,
tinman

Click to expand...

The only reasons not to are:

1. On the transmission splines - there is the input shaft seal right past the splines and I'd rather not have cleaner possibly attack it.

2. On the disk side - not a problem as long as you keep it and the residue from the old grease off the friction surfaces.

What I've done for the tranny input shaft is: clean it off with a rag as well as I can; get a clean rag, spray the parts cleaner on the rag and try to get the rest off. If the former grease was BMW #10 - it's likely there is none left anyway.

Best,

Thanks, Don.

I was gonna tune it up, change fluids, and lube the driveshaft splines tomorrow; but, Mother Nature isn't going to heat my garage very well. 35F and drafty to boot.

Does the '88 K75C have the standard or sport forks? Would you have the volumn of 7.5wt for the forks?

tim

Tim Inman said:

Thanks, Don.

Does the '88 K75C have the standard or sport forks? Would you have the volumn of 7.5wt for the forks?

tim

Click to expand...

Mebbe, mebbe not. They were standard on the S starting from the start, and I'm not sure when they moved to the other models. In general (which means there may be an exception or two) if:

1. You have an "S" stamped into the top of the fork cap - you have sport forks..

2. If you have the factory cross-brace and 2 piece fender - you have sport forks..

But I'm sure there are exceptions to #2. And my bike is the exception to #1 - it has sport forks (I've had them apart) but no "S" stamped into the top of the fork caps, I assume because ALL "S" models got the sport forks.

Go figure..

Best bet - first go look at the K-tech pages on www.ibmwr.org and see the oil capacities, then when you drain the old oil - measure the amount. Put the same amount back in.

HTH,

Thanks, Don. It's gonna have to wait, anywho. Would you believe the local BMW dealer had no 7.5 wt?? It's ordered!!

Of course, we're so far back in the hills we don't get Monday Night Football 'til Tuesday night!