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Was HODAG banned ?

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The Junior High School In/Out "Process"

if you were a mod at one point i would think you might understand the process.
Yeah, I do. Basically, the process I observed is just like joining a clique in junior high school. One of the "cool guys" asked me if I wanted to be a moderator. I agreed. A couple weeks later, I found out that I wasn't a moderator anymore. Apparently the "cool guys" decided I was no longer "in" and I discovered by chance one day that I was "out." They were so cool, that they didn't even bother to tell me AFTER the fact that I was no longer a moderator, let alone warn me that I was coloring outside the lines.

Yup, just like junior high school, THAT's the process I experienced. It would seem that you experienced the same process. You asked, "Guys, can I join your club, can I, can I?" Then one day they looked down their noses at you and said, "Hey, you wanna be in our club?" You're in for life (as long as the right guys think you're cool). If not, you're out without so much as a "Goodbye," let alone a "Thank you."

[sarcasm]
Great process, folks, one of which you should be very proud. No improvement needed there at all.
[/sarcasm]

The club jackets and Kermit chairs are reserved only for the REALLY cool guys. It's pretty easy to understand why people quit this club. I'd have quit a long time ago if I wasn't a lifetime member. Instead I choose to point at the emporer and shout, "LOOK! HE'S NAKED!"

Yeah, I know I'm tilting at windmills. But it's good for a laugh. Besides, if I protested the lies our federal government forces down our throats, I'd risk being jailed for treason because I exercised my former (repealed by executive order) constitutional rights.
 
flash - by any chance did you report those posts to a moderator? that little exclamation point button at the lower left of every post is there for doing that.
DANG! Nope. Ya learn something new every day!

So when somebody mashes that button, what happens?

Oh, right... there is nothing defined.

Nevermind.

All decisions are unilateral and based on unwritten rules.
The "in" guys get an email or a PM and the "out" guys get banned.
And in no case will anyone ever get to converse with their accusor.

[sarcasm]
Hand out the bedsheets with the eyeholes. We're all anonymous here.
Great system we've got here in the MOA. NO need for improvement.
[/sarcasm]
 
it's confusing to me why there is controversy when everyone seems to have gotten what they wanted/asked for... :D

interesting communication styles above. hodag's response is reminiscent of a spoiled little kid daring his parents to take away his toys. it's taunting, it's a dare, and it's disrespectful. it is not in any way an example of how to get along well with people. you can paint rob's comments however you like, but from what i see above, hodag had a choice between throwing water on the fire, or throwing gasoline on it, and made a clear choice.

how would you have reacted in that situation? would you have been introspective and sought to speak with rob and find out why he felt the way he did? would you want to discuss the whole "three strikes" comment and try to understand what the heck is going on? would you say, "whoa, what the heck is going on here, why am i getting this?" or would you just lash out? some people want to make the word a better place, and some people are seduced by conflict.

maybe there is a lesson for all of us in this in that we should try to do a few things whenever we are in the forums in an effort to make the discussion and environment less annoying for everyone:

1. talk about motorcycles.

2. strive to be a good communicator. explain ourselves. err on the side of verbosity in an effort to get your point across kindly.

3. avoid childish behavior. we're all adults in here, and i think we all realize when we are being inciteful, and when we are not. we have a pretty good track record in this forum of being really good at talking about BMW motorcycles like reasonable, rational, polite, considerate adults. when the topics are not motorcycle related the behavior is sometimes less than stellar. so when we're discussing non-motorcycle-related topics, we should all check ourselves. we should pause before hitting the "submit reply" button. are we being caustic? are we being denigrating? are we lashing out emotionally? are we trying to make the clubs and forum better, or are we trying to tear it down? if a new member were to log on for the first time and observe us, would they form a positive opinion of the forums, or a negative opinion? is our post useful to the online community of BMW MOA members? does our post enhance ownership of a BMW or enrich the experience of being in the club?

i have observed a small cadre of folks that either do not ask themselves the above questions, or are unable or unwilling to deign the truthful answers. we shouldn't need a long list of specific rules and examples - this is kindergarten stuff folks.

it is also my opinion that participation in the forums is a priviledge, not a right. paying your dues gets you in the door, but your conduct in the forums is how you earn the priviledge of ongoing participation. if someone came and sat with us at the rally and disrupted our conversation, interjected divisive or insulting statements, or in general acted like a jerk, they would be asked to move along. people should be held to the same standard here.

I would only add that as it is good practice not to drink and ride, it is likewise a good idea not to drink and post messages to a public Internet forum. This comes from observations from a dozen years of membership on a number of different motorcycling fora. The idea that one can "hide behind the keyboard" and be as irresponsible as one wants to be leads many, in their alcohol-fueled haze, to overstep the civilizeed boundaries of common courtesy.

The moderator often has to act as the "bouncer" does to the bar drunk. Two difficult jobs, but I do think that the moderators on this fourm are doing a pretty good and fair job.

PT9766
 
DANG! Nope. Ya learn something new every day!

So when somebody mashes that button, what happens?

Oh, right... there is nothing defined.

Nevermind.

All decisions are unilateral and based on unwritten rules.
The "in" guys get an email or a PM and the "out" guys get banned.
And in no case will anyone ever get to converse with their accusor.

[sarcasm]
Hand out the bedsheets with the eyeholes. We're all anonymous here.
Great system we've got here in the MOA. NO need for improvement.
[/sarcasm]

cute sarcasm flash, but... bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzttt!

the correct answer to what happens is in the "How do I..." Forum:

http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?t=464

Granted not the easiest thing in the world to find, but what happens is written down:

the "Posting Guidelines - Please Read" sticky said:
So, how does moderation work?

Your friendly neighborhood moderators will make every effort to work with the membership to come to an agreeable solution to what are, in keeping with the guidelines, problematic posts.

We'll send a Personal Message, encouraging the poster to either edit or delete the post and why we feel they should. We'll do these items in private to preserve everyone's dignity.

If they don't want to play along, and we certainly hope they do, we can either lock the thread down, or delete the post. Locked threads will be moved to the forum the Doghouse so folks can understand what is and isn't acceptable.

In short, nobody likes a tyrant. But everybody can live in a place where the rules are clear and applied fairly. We're striving to operate under that kind of framework.

The notable missing clause is the process for being banned, which I told you is under development right now and *will be subject to review and comment by the membership* when it's done.

So... hopefully your motive here is to remind folks that there is work underway, by volunteers who do work day jobs, on patching the holes in our policy.

Or... lacking patience... which I've asked you to have several times, maybe you can be bought off with a Kermit Chair and a Club Jacket? ;)

Ian
 
Or... lacking patience... which I've asked you to have several times, maybe you can be bought off with a Kermit Chair and a Club Jacket? ;)
Even if you ARE one of the IN guys, Ian, you've got a GREAT sense of humor and you're OK in my book.

Now that I know there's a policy in the works, I'm HAPPY to be chilling out.

XOXOXOX,
- Flash
 
flash412 said:
Even if you ARE one of the IN guys, Ian, you've got a GREAT sense of humor and you're OK in my book.

Now that I know there's a policy in the works, I'm HAPPY to be chilling out.

XOXOXOX,
- Flash

:thumb

and... *anyone* who has comments about moderation policy, and the direction they'd like to see it go... what's the thought on starting a fresh thread and heading in a positive direction?
 
:thumb

and... *anyone* who has comments about moderation policy, and the direction they'd like to see it go... what's the thought on starting a fresh thread and heading in a positive direction?


:thumb

"In every difficulty lies opportunity" - some guy smarter than me
 
Who cares?

I do and it appears many others do as well.

The issue of HODAG being banned and current moderator practices and rules strikes at the heart of what it means to be a participant of this forum and seems to me to be a very important topic. A member of this club has been banned from a benefit of the club that he has helped pay for. At this point it's really hard to know what really happened as one of the individuals is not really commenting and one is forbidden from commenting. So, recap as far as I can tel; a member has been banned from participation (not just doghoused) in a club benefit that he has helped support financially but also very actively participated in with his time. This was done by another individual that appears to have banned him not because of the rule he broke but because he violated a command by the moderator to not talk about having been judged to have broken a rule. It comes across as kind of a - oppose my decision and bring it up for discussion and I will use my power to ban you- type approach.

That being said, as far as I can tell Rob Nye has been a hero in many ways to this club (I've only got 5 years so I'm still a newbie). Countless hours of volunteering as well as holding a officer position should merit respect by all members. Yet anyone can go overboard and make a mistake. It seems to me, from what I have been reading, that HODAG does not deserve to be banned and should not have to negotiate with Rob in order to have his posting rights returned. He should be able to return and tell his side of the story and Rob should tell his side. This way, in a open discussion, the members can actually have a debate based on solid information and not speculation. It is clear a lot of the members on the forum care about what are perceived as moderator problems. Let's have a open debate, allow everything to be put on the table (personal attacks exempted of course) and start to move towards finding a policy that works for this club. What this is turning into is a HODAG vs. Rob Nye thread, which is unfortunate as the underlining issue is very important to whether other members of the BMWMOA who currently stay away will want to start contributing to the forum. Should one individual member be able to ban someone from the forum just based on that one persons view that the sentence is justified without some review by someone else?

Personally, I would like to see a forum free of active moderation where action is only taken when actual threats, clear personal attacks, or foul language are used. Let the members self moderate the forum with a option to report potentially bad behavior to the forum staff. However, I understand that this is unlikely to happen. Strangely enough in the land of the free many these days seem to be afraid of free speech and see it as a negative practice that makes life, and forums, less enjoyable not more. One thing is for certain, simply having a committee get together without vigorous debate by the membership will only result in the same issues arising every time someone gets banned.

Cheers
 
There is currently an election on. The lines have been fairly clearly drawn as to where people stand. It is regretable when club elections are closely contested, especially over issues such as this. We have seen, in the past year or two, an ascension to power of people who have a clear direction and intent for the direction the club should be taken. With all due respect to key aspirants for offices they do not currently hold, not many with strongly contrasting views have stepped up to contest those in power. This either signifies a general acceptance of the direction the club is going or a general lack of interest in what happens in club politics as long as ON doesn't appreciably change (it hasn't in any major way) and they can go to a rally and have fun with other members with similar interest (the reason d'etre for the club). I believe the latter holds sway. If there are some rough spots on the forum, so be it. While a fair number of members are registered, the number of active participants, especially in the "Clubhouse" and the "Campfire" where most bannable activity takes place, are limited. So while a few members are concerned over Hodag's banning it, much like the Editor wars, will only succed in driving a few members out of either active participation or membership in the club.:bolt
 
There is currently an election on. The lines have been fairly clearly drawn as to where people stand. It is regretable when club elections are closely contested, especially over issues such as this. We have seen, in the past year or two, an ascension to power of people who have a clear direction and intent for the direction the club should be taken. With all due respect to key aspirants for offices they do not currently hold, not many with strongly contrasting views have stepped up to contest those in power. This either signifies a general acceptance of the direction the club is going or a general lack of interest in what happens in club politics as long as ON doesn't appreciably change (it hasn't in any major way) and they can go to a rally and have fun with other members with similar interest (the reason d'etre for the club). I believe the latter holds sway. If there are some rough spots on the forum, so be it. While a fair number of members are registered, the number of active participants, especially in the "Clubhouse" and the "Campfire" where most bannable activity takes place, are limited. So while a few members are concerned over Hodag's banning it, much like the Editor wars, will only succed in driving a few members out of either active participation or membership in the club.:bolt


Some good points. I basically voted for the status quo as I feel the current elected officers are taking the club into a good direction. However, the forum is special in that members can have a up to the second place to express their views and the officers can use the forum as an additional tool to try and gage where the desires of the membership might be heading. Discussing these issues on the forum won't necessarily result in change by itself but it might plant seeds that ultimately do. Then again, some issues disappear. The ON Editor issue is a good example of something that died down because basically Vince came in and took away all the thunder from the arguments of those who were skeptical that ON would get better (except for those few who were just standing up for Sandy on personal grounds). I know. I was one of those skeptics. If ON would have went downhill I would still be hitting this issue on this forum as would many others. For all those looking at this as a HODAG vs. Rob issue then it will die a quick death as a discussion. And it deserves to. However, I really do feel the current discussion concerning the ability of one member to remove another members benefits unilaterally is very much a fire worth stoking. Sometimes fires burn out of control and need to be put out...other times they can provide some much needed illumination.

Cheers
 
Okay my turn...

Well I have been biting my tongue but figure it is time to say a few comments. These are my personal comments and the way I handle moderation.

1) I am still a relative newbie.
2) I signed up early to the forum
3) I volunteered to help on the website and the forum - ranging from editing the pages of the main website before the Editor change over to being asked to moderate a forum or two
4) I was eventually asked to become a "supermoderator" which allows me to moderate in all forums
5) I feel that less moderation is better.
6) I usually spend about two hours a day reading the forums, I truly try to read every post.

Up until recently it was fairly painless process and was just a matter of pointing people toward the right location to get an answer to their question, or help people with log in actions, or how to post a picture. Occasionally a thread of advertising would come up and we would have to look at it. Then there were occasionally trolls on the Rally Forum that is open to the public. So every forum has some of its own growing pains, it happens.

I was by no way shape or form an insider in the process, I just happened to be interested in becoming involved. I never even met my "co moderators" until I had been a webteam member for almost a year.

I have seen lots of people make assumptions about the way that the forums and the MOA works, and at times it is some what spiteful. Most of the people who are involved with the MOA are volunteering to help their fellow enthusiasts. If anything volunteering for the MOA is an expensive proposition, it ends up taking time and money. There are phone calls during meals, paying for travel expenses, missed time with family due to commitments to the MOA, and the list can continue.

So when the accusations starts to fly, it becomes extremely distasteful to those who are volunteering their efforts. To be accused of various deeds without actually having any facts to back it up can be downright demoralizing.

We are not all going to like one another, it is just human nature when you get more than two people at a gathering. Not everyone is going to get along. However here on the Internet people seems to be less likely to walk away like they would in person.

There are threads up on this forum that I would personally like to close and delete. But that is not the metric I use. I use the metric of is it good for the community is it adding value. Is it attacking anyone?

So I am not asking for a pity party or a round of thanks or anything. I am simply paying back into the Karma pool. I am enjoying helping others. Some times other stuff gets in the way and I just have to sit back and think... well this is how they have their fun.

I also have been involved in a few of the previous time outs. These issues are not taken lightly by the moderation team. We discuss these issues and try to work through to an understanding that is best for the member and the MOA. Is there room for improvement? Yes, there always is.

So I would recommend that we all take a deep breath and think about riding a fun road or hanging around the camp fire with friends, cause there are things more important than this forum in life; such as people.

If you have questions, comments, or concerns you can always feel free to ping me, I have more then enough ways to get a hold of me listed in my profile.
 
Mercury rides again

MOA forum
From: Mark Krause )
Add contact
Sent:Mon 4/30/07 11:01 AM
To:

Hey buddy,

Tell everyone to just let it die, not worth even discussing anymore. Its just the internet.


I spent a good part of the day discussing it with Rob, and the only real thing accomplished was me developing a attitude of complete lack of caring about the situation. IÔÇÖve washed my hands of the whole deal and just walked away.



IÔÇÖll see you at west bend.

mark
 
MOA forum
From: Mark Krause )
Add contact
Sent:Mon 4/30/07 11:01 AM
To:

Hey buddy,

Tell everyone to just let it die, not worth even discussing anymore. Its just the internet.


I spent a good part of the day discussing it with Rob, and the only real thing accomplished was me developing a attitude of complete lack of caring about the situation. IÔÇÖve washed my hands of the whole deal and just walked away.



IÔÇÖll see you at west bend.

mark

M1KA- Thanks for passing on Marks messege.

To Mark,

Sorry to hear that HODAG. I've always enjoyed your posts. I would ask you to reconsider and just give lords of moderation what they want. You are right, it's only the internet but maybe your presence could help along this moderator debate-that is if you are allowed to discuss this issue if you return. There are over 20,000 registered users here but very few regular contributors. You are one of the more active members and many here enjoy your posts. So come on back, everyone will know what's up.

A message to the forum board: As Moses said to Pharaoh: Let that HODAG go!
 
Wish you would come back,Mark

but I understand your frustration in dealing with Nye.I was there too.
In 30 days he won't have any influence on any forum whatsoever.:dance
 
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