Don't go there

No one is forced to go visit it. It supplies an outlet for what would surely get modded in campfire and it is low maintenance. I see no reason for folks who have this intense desire to force others to lose something that is neither illegal, fattening or immoral merely because they don't like it themselves.

If ya don't like it stay away. If ya do like it, play nice.

PT9766 said:

I enjoyed the one discussion on DGT in which I posted. And found that fact could have a positive bearing on discussion of an otherwise divisive subject. However, it seems to me in looking over a number of other threads, that there is a substantial lack of clear and logical reasoning in the opinions and points being made, discussed and debated.

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I do see your point.
We can't just ban people from this forum because they aren't clear and logical, otherwise this forum would be made up only of Vulcans.

PT9766 said:

And much of the posting is either in the nature of obvious trolling in order to stir up an argument, or narrow-minded chauvinistic opinion - which is probably alcohol-fueled.
It seems a long way away from the discussion of BMW motorcycles and issues even slightly related to such.

It is probably an unnecessary part of the forum.

PT9766

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I agree with the second part, but when there was no DGT, the threads appeared in the campfire section. Quite frankly, I would quickly become bored if all that was talked about was BMW motorcycles and issues directly related to such.
See your first comment about clear and logical reasoning. These people may think they are being clear and logical, not obviously trolling. Also, people are entitled to their opinions, even if they are narrow minded and chauvinistic. If we do not give them a venue, banning or seeing those types of comments come up in the campfire are the only choices.

I like Campfire. I like the friendliness of Campfire and the positive attitudes that are displayed.

It is quite clear however that a solely sugar diet isn't as sweet as it sounds.

For those BMW MOA members (because that's what we all are) with an agenda or need to make a less than sweet point, DGT offers a means to an end.

As I look at the current poll, it's almost 2:1 against getting rid of it, and it would be interesting to see how many of those for DGT's erradication have contributed to any of its threads.

I for one, will not be visiting DGT again, but I do see its purpose as being a creditable addition to the overall site...and that despite recent occurances.

Lamble,

Why are you bailing on DGT? I need your help keeing RKASAL in line!

dvandkq said:

Lamble,

Why are you bailing on DGT? I need your help keeing RKASAL in line!

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Optimist!

dvandkq said:

Lamble,

Why are you bailing on DGT? I need your help keeing RKASAL in line!

Click to expand...

Rapid_Roy said:

IWe can't just ban people from this forum because they aren't clear and logical

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Hodag said:

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Don't think I don't know that!

dvandkq said:

Lamble,

Why are you bailing on DGT? I need your help keeing RKASAL in line!

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I was reading a book called Monkey Portraits, well looking at the pics actually, and some are apes not monkeys but that aside, there's a picture of a Rhesus Macaque and if you anthropomorphise it, he's deep in thought and meditative...alongside is this:

The art of being wise is the art of knowing what to overlook.
William James.

It struck a note.
I, and anyone else here, can make a choice to be wiser.

If you choose to enter into DGT and converse, then you are just fuelling a need, either your own, or that of the poster of the thread. I don't need to and I'm not supporting anyone else's needs, either directly or indirectly.

Sometimes the sound of silence is deafening.

survey SAYS...

... Don't go there sucks in shades of gray.

thanks everyone for your votes, discussion and valuable thoughts.

here are mine.

as it is right now, the DGT forum does not reflect the values of the BMW MOA
it's pretty clear that many participants did not and still don't understand the purpose of the DGT forum. perhaps that wasn't made clear enough, but two months into the experiment a signficant amount of the discussion does not reflect mature individuals discussing topics in a mature fashion.

the DGT forum was not moderated properly
this is my fault. we had four moderators, now three, and i am one of those three. the other two were waiting for guidance from me and i failed to provide it to them. my strategy was based on a belief in the intrinsically good qualities of BMW MOA members, and i approached the guidance by starting discussions that were of the tone and nature that i felt would be representative of those qualities. this was unsuccessful.

some of the DGT participants are people for whom posting is all about themselves, and who are unpleasant online. while it's clear there's no way to stop them except on a content level, there is no reason at all why there should be a place on the forum for them to spout off more.

the DGT forum has become a hostile environment, especially to women
in all honesty, this observation should be at the top of the list. i've received a number of communications, from members that i deeply respect, saying they feel uncomfortable participating in our forum and that the DGT experiment has only amplified that perception. to me, this is a huge disaster.

DGT is a magnetic drain plug for the lowest common denominator
it was supposed to be a magnetic drain plug for *topics* that would quench the spirit of the campfire. and i am trying to be respectful to all BMW MOA members when i say this, but blatantly trolling partisan threads, gratuitous attempts to goad the moderators, disrespectul commentary about other's opinions (if not exactly outright personal attacks) and willful resistance to moderation guidance is really not what was expected.

But it is what a member of our moderation team, as we weighed the pro's and con's of this forum, predicted:

• It's not relevant to the BMW MOA club
• It's not what we want new members to see and think of us
• There are plenty of other places for it, and for those who want it, we'd be happy to help them find it.

so, as stated upon its inception, DGT is an experiment. right now i see it as being closer to failure than success. the results of the poll (obviously, not statistically valid) seem to indicate a desire by the majority to continue the experiment so we will.... through Super Tuesday.

if it continues in the direction it's currently going, Don't go there will be going... going... gone.

ian

forum liaision

ps => we need volunteers to be DGT moderators during business hours, and are looking for additional moderators to support some other areas of the forum, as well.

pps => volunteers for the forum liaison position are now being accepted.

thanx

Thank you, Ian. And a well-reasoned good call imho.

Ian,
Thanks for the update/assessment of the experiment.

Unfortunately, I don't foresee anything changing given the vitriolic and malicious nature of some of the regulars (many of you know exactly who I mean).

I don't feel that your last statement should have been conditional. DGT is cancerous and it needs to be excised immediately.

tessler said:

Ian,
Thanks for the update/assessment of the experiment.

Unfortunately, I don't foresee anything changing given the vitriolic and malicious nature of some of the regulars (many of you know exactly who I mean).

I don't feel that your last statement should have been conditional. DGT is cancerous and it needs to be excised immediately.

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Rather hypocritical. But I'm not going to out you Jonathan.

gentlemen, let's NOT go there.

ian

forum liaison

lamble said:

The art of being wise is the art of knowing what to overlook.
William James.

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Was he the same guy that coined the phrase

If you know you're right you can afford to keep quiet.

Visian said:

... Don't go there sucks in shades of gray.

thanks everyone for your votes, discussion and valuable thoughts.

here are mine.

[snipage]

But it is what a member of our moderation team, as we weighed the pro's and con's of this forum, predicted:

• It's not relevant to the BMW MOA club
• It's not what we want new members to see and think of us
• There are plenty of other places for it, and for those who want it, we'd be happy to help them find it.

so, as stated upon its inception, DGT is an experiment. right now i see it as being closer to failure than success. the results of the poll (obviously, not statistically valid) seem to indicate a desire by the majority to continue the experiment so we will.... through Super Tuesday.

if it continues in the direction it's currently going, Don't go there will be going... going... gone.

ian

forum liaision

ps => we need volunteers to be DGT moderators during business hours, and are looking for additional moderators to support some other areas of the forum, as well.

pps => volunteers for the forum liaison position are now being accepted.

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While I agree with your assessment of its success/failure my one concern is that if it does go away then those types of posts will resurface in the public areas. I have already seen on another board where several newcomers have expressed concern about joining the organization based on what they saw in similar threads before those boards moved them to a non-public viewing area.

Being confronted by obvious trolls, regardless of how much the poster may have protested that that is not what they were, (I'm sorry but we, as a whole, are just not that stupit that we can't see it for what it is!) is not the experience I would want to here, as many others have stated. Even though one can ignore the content contained within, the title itself is still viewable and that alone can somewhat disheartening/annoying at the very least.

For that reason alone I say let it be, every community has a garbage pile/cesspool to deal with, at least leaving it where it is, puts it behind a door one does not have to open.

RM

rocketman said:

For that reason alone I say let it be, every community has a garbage pile/cesspool to deal with, at least leaving it where it is, puts it behind a door one does not have to open.

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thank for your thoughts.

the question is: what's better... a cesspool or a more agressive moderation stance where objectionable content is deleted at the discretion of the moderators, with the moderators word *final*?

if most people find that reasonable, but don't like the whole *final* thing, an appeals process might be appropriate.

ian

forum liaison and.... also posting this thought as a member:

The thing that bothers me is that the BMWMOA has every right to state this does not meet their values. However, by extension, the individuals that are not getting it, also do not meet their values. By closing this section, yet leaving these individuals as members of the BMWMOA, the problem has not been removed. There is a good chance threads such as those in the DGT will pop up again in the campfire.

The policy should be such that if those topics are verboten, people should be banned from the forum for bringing them up. Maybe not permanently, or with warnings first, but that seems the only choice if BMWMOA wants to protect their values. Quite frankly, in the short time I have been a member, I have seen people complain about almost everything. Nobody will ever be completely happy with this forum, but I understand the need to meet as large an audience as possible.

The photography forum is an example of a whole area of the forum that isn't about BMW motorcycles at all, and is of interest to a percentage of it's members. If enough people complain about it, will it be removed also? Some people felt there was too much talking, some felt it wasn't a problem. What if enough people feel it doesn't have anything to do with BMW motorcycles and shouldn't be here?
I am offended by some things people type here, but one needs a thicker skin on internet forums. This forum has the air of a Gentlemen's and Ladies Country Club, which is enjoyable, and I feel politeness is a big plus.

IMO, much of this will definitely put young people to sleep. If the BMWMOA wants to attract younger riders, they need to examine their values and how they relate to a larger group of young people, or all of them will head to ADVrider, where volatile subjects can still be talked about. I don't see the DGT as a big threat to civilized society, since many people were able to be polite and civilized talking about these issues. I also have noticed the line is fuzzy between personal attacks and poking fun at people. If this forum becomes too rigid and full of rules, nobody will want to post here. This is just my .02.

Unless moderators have a checklist of criteria for exclusion, or movement of a thread to the Doghouse, they'll be open to accusations of bias, to being lenient, or, too strict, probably all three at the same time).

The criteria must be available to, and more importantly, understood, by members.

As it stands, this would be an almost impossible position to put moderators in.

A thread, of itself, is an inanimate object. I agree with Rapid Roy, "By closing this section, yet leaving these individuals as members of the BMWMOA, the problem has not been removed. There is a good chance threads such as those in the DGT will pop up again in the campfire."
It's not the threads, it's the members that post them that need addressing.

DGT will work as originally intended, if not allowed to be abused.
Moderate it based on easily understood and open criteria, so you'll know when you've crossed the line.

Use the star recommendation system in reverse..one black star, watch out,
two, 2 day suspension from site,
three, suspension 5 days off the site.
(Naturally, these are just example numbers)

2nd time offenders (amass 5 black stars) 4 weeks off the site
3rd time (7 stars) bye bye BMW MOA membership.

Of course, if a poster causes offense at a level warranting immediate suspension (as designated by the criteria) this will require the three or four moderators to agree(or a majority?).
BMW MOA banning could be the appeal stage.

Of course, there's grey areas in this that need working through, like what happens during the lapse time until an appeal can be heard (limited access but no posting?)?

I've nicked the idea from the Football Association's carding system. It works for them and the millions of football (soccer) players around the world, so for a few BMWMOA members, it should be a doddle to impliment.

Question: should any penalties apply to the thread originator, or the poster of comments within that thread, or both?

Don't go there . . .

I find the forum refreshing and oftentimes amusing. My only criticism at the forum's inception was its name. I thought "Fight Club" would be more reflective of the topics and sometimes heated discussions, and oftentimes misguided or faulty logic.

I believe that it is but an outlet for our members. Not a place for "touchy feely," politically correct BS. Although BMWMOA was formed to celebrate the camaraderie around a particular brand of motorcycle and the experience of motorcycling in general the membership should not be limited to merely motorcycling.

The photography forum has been instructive, interesting, and fun. Likewise in the DGT forum the banter between several members over various topics have solidified my belief that there is more to this organization than: "What is the best tankbag for my GS?" threads.

Single topic forums are just too boring and lack diversity. (Did I just say diversity?)